The Psychological Makeup of Top 1% Performers: Warriors’ Psychologist and Ex-NFL GM

When millions of dollars and careers hang in the balance, how do the world’s  stay calm, clear, and decisive?

In this episode, former NFL GM Mike Tannenbaum and performance psychologist Dr. Scott Goldman reveal what really happens in the pressure cooker of an NFL Draft war room, and how elite decision-makers in sports use cutting-edge psychology to gain an edge for their organizations.

These aren’t just sports stories—they’re blueprints for any leader under pressure.

Discover:

• How pro sports teams, the military, NASA, and other elite organizations are embracing psychological consultants
• Why “mental toughness” might not look the way you think
• What NFL draft day drama can teach you about your next high-stakes decision

Connect with Mike:

🌐 Website: https://www.the33rdteam.com/

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-tannenbaum-36773176/

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/realtannenbaum

📸 Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/realtannenbaum/

Connect with Scott:

🌐 Website: https://aiq.team/

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/scottgoldmanphd/

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/scottgoldmanphd

Follow me for more:

🌐 Website: www.toughness.com

📸 Instagram: @paddysgram

💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort

✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

  

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Mike Tannenbaum: Who you really are is how you treat people that can't help you. 

[00:00:03] Scott Goldman: Human behavior is really complex. Human interactions is a multiplier of that. 

[00:00:08] Mike Tannenbaum: In every GM's office in all four major sports, there's one mathematical formula on everyone's board, which is production equals tolerance. 

[00:00:15] Scott Goldman: I think real toughness comes from asking for help.

[00:00:26] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the Toughness Podcast. My name's Pat Stein Fitts, your host, and today we have a couple of very high-level guests. One from the world of NFL Football and Executive, who is well respected across the sport, has been the, uh, vice president of football operations for the Miami Dolphins. Prior to that has been a GM for the New York Jets in the NFL and a few other teams around the traps now serves as specialist on ESPN. Welcome to the show. Mike Tannenbaum

[00:00:52] Mike Tannenbaum: great to be with you. 

[00:00:54] Paddy Steinfort: Thank you for being with us and, and here joining you is, is someone you've worked with, uh, along that journey. Dr. Scott Goldman, who also has a, a fantastic pedigree in terms of experience across a, a number of different teams at a really high level, has been with both the Miami Dolphins and the Detroit Lions, and is now serving as the, uh, performance psychologist for the Golden State Warriors.

And of super interest to this topic in particular for this podcast is the CEO and Founder. I'm not sure if that title's right, Scott. You can correct me. But basically the, the instigator of one of my most respected, the, the tool that I respect the most in terms of identifying toughness in performance, which is the AIQ.

[00:01:33] Paddy Steinfort: We'll dig into that. Welcome to the show, Scott Goldman. 

[00:01:36] Scott Goldman: Oh, thanks. It's an honor. You can add to that resume that I am Mr. Tannenbaum's caddy as well. 

[00:01:41] Paddy Steinfort: Oh, okay. So let's dive straight into that. I love getting into the juicy stuff early. Is that an accidental pairing because Scott just couldn't play golf one time.

You took him out on the course, Mike and you said, Hey, just carry my, my clubs, or was he a good advisor? 

[00:01:54] Mike Tannenbaum: I think Scott was talking about more about being in the figurative sense than the literal sense. Scott's been a trusted friend, counsel, and he has a lot of wisdom that I'm sure will come out during, uh, our conversation here.

[00:02:06] Paddy Steinfort: No doubt. Let's talk about how you guys crossed paths, or actually, let's start before that, Mike, a little bit about your background. Obviously people who are listening and who are NFL fans or watch ESPN will probably be very familiar with your work, but for those who aren't talking about where you grew up and how you ended up becoming the leader of some of these great historic sporting franchises, was that something you always wanted to do or did it evolve?

[00:02:29] Mike Tannenbaum: I grew up in Boston and I greatly ama admired Red Auerbach, who was a long-time coach and then GM of the Celtics, and I felt like he was always like one step ahead of everybody. So I had a dream of working in sports and went to University of Massachusetts as an undergrad. They had sport management program, went to Tulane Law School.

I was unbelievably lucky for the first 75 years. Basically, players stayed with their, their teams in 93, they got free agency in the form. There was a compromise and a collective bargaining agreement. The players got free, agency owners had cost earning in the form of a salary cap. I was at the right place at the right time.

I put a book together on how I thought to run a team. On basically maximizing the salary cap. I sent it out to 60 people. There was 30 teams at the time, and Coach Belichick hired me at the Browns. And then from there I was at the Saints where I had interned in law school. Spent 16 years at the Jets last seven as a GM had a chance to create a coaching representation business representing basketball and football coaches, which was a, a thrill. I was a privilege to work with people like Steve Kerr and Dan Quinn, and then had the opportunity to do some sports performance consultancy for the Dolphins. Went to, uh, Manchester City by Munich, AC Milan, that led to running the Dolphins for, uh, a number of years, proudly went to the playoffs for the first time since current owner owned the team.

And then I've been with the SPN the last couple years as their. On Air Voice for, uh, all transactions and from a, a front office perspective, 

[00:04:01] Paddy Steinfort: Such an incredible resume firstly, but the amount of experience and firsthand knowledge of seeing the world's best in different arenas there, it's coming fascinating to, to dig into that. And you, we just finished there just before the ESPN bit was where you crossed paths with Scott in Miami. Scott, your journey was obviously different, didn't grow up in Boston as far as I know, but have ended up at the pinnacle of sport as well in your own right. Tell us about how you took that path into being one of the most respected performance Sykes in the world. 

[00:04:30] Scott Goldman: First of all, I'm humbled. I'm humbled by even that title. I'm I'll, I'll see if I can live up to it. So I was born and raised in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I went to undergrad at Tulane. So you would think maybe it's something in the water down in the Bayou that has caused some overlap between, or maybe not the water, but maybe the Abi a.But  

[00:04:50] Paddy Steinfort: um, maybe the amba fluid. 

[00:04:53] Scott Goldman: That's right. And then I ended up going to graduate school where I got two PhDs. One was in clinical psychology and one was in school psychology. And while doing that, I was playing, uh, semi-professional soccer at the time and trying to figure out how can I merge these two passions of psychology and sport when I discovered this whole world. So if it wasn't stupid enough going after two PhDs for the price of two PhDs, both in time, money, and effort. I added all this advanced training and performance optimization and exercise science and kinesiology type curriculum. I then was hired at the University of Arizona. I was one of the first embedded psychologists in an athletic department.

I was one of the first six. We did some amazing work at Arizona and it was really the collective, the ad. The sports med, the coaches there, everybody. I. People started to notice, which is where I got involved with the NCAA and uh, co-authored the best practice guidelines that are now being distributed as the gold standard.

After that document got produced, the University of Michigan recruited me to come out and I guess when you've got leaders in best in your fight song, you start to say, Hey, what can we do to make what we're doing in-house better? So they brought me out to upgrade that where I was the director. Of their performance psychology unit for their athletic department.

As Mike was mentioning, Stephen Ross, the owner for the Miami Dolphins, he actually owns two football teams. One is the Miami Dolphins, the other is the Michigan Wolverines. So there was some synergy there, but actually what led me to join the Miami Dolphins. Was the AIQ that you mentioned. So during all of that professional career path and development as a passion project, I created a test that measures sports-specific intelligence.

And so it was interesting because for me, in my career path, there were times where the AIQ brought opportunity to me to do something really neat. Then there were times where I had a seat at the table that I could then introduce the A IQ. So these two entities myself and the AIQ kind of bounced off each other.

That's what happened at Miami was, um, Miami discovered the A IQ and found its benefit and utility and in the nature of some of the dialogue about what the AIQ could provide people like Mike and Chris Grier. And Adam Gase, were enjoying some of the additional dialogue. So, um, there was an incident that happened where they wanted me to add on and provide more resources to them.

The way I remember it was a competitor. The Buffalo Bills reached out to me and expressed interest in me coming on board, and the three of them sat me down and they said, look, like. Let's do something that no one's ever done before. Like, we really like what's going on here and let's just tear stuff up and let's go.

And I really was excited for me, a lot of the decisions I've made in my career have always been about doing cool stuff with cool people, and I really liked the way these three individuals thought. And so I joined. Then about a month or two months into that, coach Patricia with the Detroit Lions was dealing with some stuff and asked to borrow me almost like, Hey, can I borrow a cup of sugar?

You are not that sweet though. Maybe that's true. So Mike put me on loan, which I thought was really nice. It was interesting, the dialogue, 'cause some people in the building were saying, Hey, we don't wanna share 'em. But, but they agreed. So I, I worked for the Detroit Lions and the Miami Dolphins at the same time and uh, I just went between the two teams every other week.

Then in, in the meantime, the Washington Wizards reached out to me and asked if I could work with them. And I did that. And then the Golden State Warriors asked if I could, so for, there was actually one year where I was working with all four teams, and now I'm putting a lot more time and attention into the Golden State Warrior,s and that's why I'm putting in Dish to the aq.

So that's, that's my career path in a nutshell. 

[00:08:47] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. So two heck of a career paths right there and, and both 

[00:08:52] Mike Tannenbaum: just for, that was not a nutshell, that was an opus there. That was not. I like to give Scott a a hard time about him being long-winded. So

[00:09:00] Scott Goldman: that was not succinct, but you know what? I left out a whole bunch of other stuff that would've taken us down the weeds, but you're right. I, it's like the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Here we go. 

[00:09:09] Paddy Steinfort: If we were, if we were gonna really just let the reins off, we'd say it wasn't a nutshell. That's a nut back, but that's a totally different conversation. It's a very different tangent We got down there. Now we're getting somewhere. There's three things that you mentioned there.

Scott that, uh, I think are gonna be worth diving into, one being the A IQ, which we, we will circle back to two being you, you alluded there, and I, I'm really interested to hear, Mike, your views on this. The, the ability of a system to develop, to nurture talent and toughness, and to change some of those elements of performance makeups.

And then Scott and Mike also can equally share their wisdom on those specific performance moments and clutch moments. And. Some of the decision-making stuff that happens at the table when you're in a draft room or when you're making these big contract decisions, free agent decisions, what goes into that as a performer, yourself as an executive, because it's not just the players who are performers.

Sometimes we can look at the coaches. Scott, you and I have talked about that, uh, plenty of times where the coaches themselves are performers under pressure, but it applies equally to the executives who are making these multimillion-dollar deals that can affect the course of their franchise and in some cases their own careers.

Before we dive into all of that, let's just circle back so that we're very clear on this A IQ thing that stands for Athlete Intelligence Quotient. Scott, can you fill us in on exactly what it measures just in a high-level nutshell view. Sure. Yeah. I'm 

[00:10:35] Scott Goldman: trying to do 50 words or less. The A IQ measures sports-specific intelligence. And so what I mean by that is the cognitive abilities that are most needed to execute in lifetime sport activity. Unsolvable puzzles and chaotic situations, really, and 

[00:10:50] Paddy Steinfort: it's, it came across my radar when I was head of metal performance at the Toronto Blue Jays, because I had done some psychometric stuff, which was more personality testing, trying to find things in.

People's makeup that they would express about their own identity that correlated with, oh, that means they're more likely to make it if we draft them or not, or they're more likely to handle pressure, et cetera, which to some degree was showing. There were little signals, little blips, and depending on the population or the sport, we were having some results.

But in particular, there was nothing that I could find. Definitely nothing to the level of rigor and the amount of sample size you had collected over time. That measured those innate skills that I would refer to as working memory. Your ability to, to visually chop up a field, to react in time, to process huge amounts of information and select the right play out of hundreds in two seconds.

And that really brought a, a across my radar. And we've talked a lot about how it applies and how effective it's across across sports. Mike, I'm interested in your thoughts on that. What, before you came across the AIQ. How did you go about, as you went through that incredible journey from working with Bill at, uh, one of the greatest coach ever, arguably at, uh, Cleveland as he started his career, and then all that time in the big smoke of New York City where it's a very, it's not a easy market to survive in and you've watched decades of football now.

How did you go about before you came across the a IQ judging a player's ability to be tough? 

[00:12:21] Mike Tannenbaum: Yeah, it's a great question, Patty. And just a little bit of a, a plug here. I'm part of a organization called the 33rd Club, 30 13, which is 30thirteen.com, and once a week we get together and we talk about the issues in and around football with GMs and head coaches.

Scott's part of that, and we talk about things like that all the time because it's really hard from a process. With my background, I have an accounting degree, I have a law degree. I like objective indices. I like to tie things into bedrock sort of principles. And now we're into the as subjective of question as you possibly can ask.

I, I would say a couple of things for me. One is who you really are. It's how you treat people that can't help you. When no one's looking. That's true character. So this word culture, I think is somewhat overused in sports nowadays, Patty. But what I would say is culture at the end of the day is what's acceptable to that sort of ecosystem that you're part of, whatever it may be.

You know, running a team, a network, any sort of association, that's really what culture is and it's what is acceptable and to assess. Toughness and what's acceptable I think is really contextual. And I think one of the the big challenges you have with a football team running a team is you're dealing with such massive numbers just in terms of like there's 90 players on a team in the offseason.

So you're not gonna have everyone meet those standards and then you have to start making decisions, you know? I joke, but. In every GM's office in all four major sports, there's one mathematical formula on everyone's board, which is production equals tolerance. And that's just the reality that's true about life.

The more you produce, the more you you'll be tolerated. Um, but it's hard to sit here and say, Hey, we could just do this sort of one approach, this one diagnostic test to give us the answers. It just doesn't exist. To Scott's credit, the AIQ is really the closest I've seen in 20 plus years, literally going around the world to say like, how can you systematically identify acceptable behavior, or in your case, the word toughness.

[00:14:26] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And I think I, I want to second that in, in that was what I discovered as I explored more about it and also. Ran the tests on the entire minor league system in Toronto. Started to track that data long get longitudinally and then moved sports. I wanted to keep it secret 'cause I was like, oh, I've discovered this and I don't know how many other people have.

Now I'm a bit beyond that 'cause I'm like, wherever I go as a free agent coach, I wanna be able to take this thing in with me. It's a very handy tool and I, I agree with you that it's very hard to pass out. I love that little equation you shared. Production equals tolerance. And we'll circle back to that a a little later in the show, I suspect, when we talk about some of those hard decisions on how much do you tolerate versus how much production and how much disruption, but specifically to that toughness equation, it's a question I ask all of the guests.

And so Mike, I'll go back to you just 'cause you were talking there. And then Scott, I'll go to you. How do you define toughness in what you've observed over the years? What would you say toughness looks like? 

[00:15:25] Scott Goldman: Patty before, Mike, before you answer that question. 'cause Patty, I think you, you, uh, glossed over something that I would love to highlight, which is the 33rd team, this program that Mike's created.

So I just think. Whoever's listening to this, something to note is most content that's written about sports is almost from an outsider's perspective, a fan base perspective, that kind of thing, and almost like it's like science fiction. Mm-hmm. That 33rd report that Mike Tananbaum and his colleagues create is such a great.

It's just, it's factual. It has insight. I've never seen anything that has more information that is so spot-on about what's going on in the league and what's going on with teams. Like they break things down into such level of depth that it, it, it would be that if they had 90 players, they could roll out a squad and probably end up with at least a 12-win season, attending some of those meetings. It's with GMs and head coaches. It is so content rich that if you wanna learn about football, if you're passionate about football, if you wanna work in football, you could not find a better resource than 33rd. 

[00:16:38] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. Mike, you can talk about that. No, I think I, I want to use a, a metaphor to sum that up there where, uh, Nicholas Nasim Taleb, who wrote The Black Swan and, and is a, a leader that I.

A topic he talks about called Skin the Game, where it's very easy for outsiders to. This, you know, if we were eating from a menu, it's what this looks like and what this tastes like and how they cook it. But unless you've actually put it in your mouth, you don't really know the experience unless you've actually ingested it, gone through that whole experience, maybe being the one who cooked it.

That's the equivalent of, of being able to get in with the people who've actually been in there, smelled the sweat, spent the dollars been fired, been traded, been hired. That's a different level of thought, so I, I totally agree with you there, Scott. Mike, back to you on the question, what does toughness mean to you in your experience?

[00:17:27] Mike Tannenbaum: It's exceeding expectations and it's mental, by the way. It's mental and physical toughness. I would tell you my own career, if I had to evaluate myself, I would tell you that one of my strengths would be just that mental toughness. We could spend the hours about areas I could currently get better at and play of.

Media reports would give, can give you those topics, but the ability to exceed expectations and to hang in there when it's not easy to do. So you know, the victories and the struggle. Phil Nicholson recently won the PGA Championship at 50 years old, and my big takeaway was about he fast 36 hours. Every seven to 10 days, he has arthritis.

He's 50 years old and he just beat the best of the best. That's mental toughness when you see it. Coach Belichick always told the team like bad football when you see it, physical toughness. I think that's like colloquially accepted in our society, dealing with injuries being physically tougher than your opponent, wearing them down.

I think we all know that I. Mental toughness is really, and I think Jimmy Johnson a decade ago, a generation ago, really talked about it very well. He talked about this whole notion of, um, no parachutes when he was putting the Dallas Cowboys together, foundationally, when they were rising to be the best in the back in the early mid-nineties.

He talked about I want players that have no parachutes. Meaning if they weren't gonna be successful in pro football, they were gonna abject poverty and that is to me a great example of what mental toughness is.

[00:19:01] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. It's the idea of, again, skinny the game. If you've got everything to lose, you're probably gonna go a little further.

Those with the most invested are the last to surrender. Scott, your more academic viewpoint potentially, but probably also pragmatic, even you've seen it up, up close as well. 

[00:19:16] Scott Goldman: Yeah. I guess there's a part of me that kind of takes it from a more psychological lens. And slightly different twist to it, which is I think at the elite level, at the elite space, whether you're a player, coach or front office, and, and Mike alluded to this a little bit, is like there are gonna be slings and arrows and some of it comes inside the building and some of it comes outside the building.

And so what's really interesting to me is talking with colleagues, talking with coaches, talking with players. Sometimes it's like this theme of like, Hey, you gotta have really thick skin. You gotta have that kind of leather skin. You gotta be able to, and I actually go in the opposite direction. Like I find some of the most mentally tough individuals I've been around are the ones that have a level of vulnerability to them.

So instead of being immune to the slings and arrows. They're actually going, Hey, that really hurts. And they wanna process and talk about that. And the reason why I gravitate more towards that vulnerability as strength, kind of dynamic is those with the leather skin. Those that are like, oh, I'm un I'm, I'm unaffected when my peers and colleagues are insulting me, kind of thing.

I think that's almost sociopathic behavior. So you might inherit someone who's really mentally tough, but they might lack the sense and sensibility to really connect with other human beings, the ones that go. I feel every bit of the sting that when the social media pings me, when the dialogue on Good Morning America pings me, like I feel every sting of that and still continue to do my craft.

I think that takes a tremendous amount of strength and toughness and then. Because no man is an island. I think real toughness comes from asking for help. I think a lot of times we forget what a gift it is to help other people, and so sometimes I remind really strong individuals how good you can make someone else feel by asking them for help or giving them an opportunity to help you.

So I actually think of the paradox. Of, of your question and think about the vulnerability and the ability to ask for help. 

[00:21:24] Paddy Steinfort: It is definitely the longer I've been in the game of, on the mental side of it, I, I played professionally, but then went into coaching and then specialized here in the mental side of things.

And to me, that's been the biggest evolution on my front, was discovering that what I thought was toughness early on, where it's critch teeth, just get through it. Everything you described there is a strength, if you will, is not the only thing. And the ability to be flexible, to be vulnerable, to be open actually takes you to a, a new level because not only are you you to become perhaps not immune, you may still be touched by it, but you're not affected by it is probably the the end result there.

The, it leads me to the next question. Particularly say there people who are to.

A psychologist or the mental performance coach in an arena or walking into a room where people are like, do we trust this guy? Does he, is he gonna get in our head? What is this guy gonna do? Is he a quack, shrink, whatever the old school names are. And so I'm curious how Mike, you've seen that evolve over the time from back in the days where Jimmy Johnson was coaching and being tough was about your teeth and getting through to now where guys are expressing mental health issues on social media.

They're talking about social justice issues. They're, they're more open these days. And, and I wonder if that's a result of just a generation or if you've had to see at the top of these organizations, you've had to develop environments that allow performers to connect with guys like Scott. 

[00:22:52] Mike Tannenbaum: I wanna start with, uh, the word you just used there, the environment, the Latin words underneath Harvard is, uh, Veritas.

And that loosely means truth to a, a higher another, like the purest form, truth to a higher level. And I have seen firsthand. And more importantly, I study people like Ray Dalio. And that is really the most optimally to run any franchise is to have an environment of Veritas where. There are no missing conversations where anybody could say anything to anyone from the person who works security to the owner that we're only speaking about the truth, to help us get to be the optimum performance we can have.

And now that conversation has quickly shifted to things like mental health, but I think more fundamentally you need a culture and an environment of Veritas where people can bring suggestions in a meaningful way. So that you could act on, we're talking about mental health now. A couple years ago we were probably talking about things like sleep, rest, and hydration.

Three years from now, Patty, there's gonna be some other sort of like transformational discussion trend. Yeah. And the organizations that are set up where we could all speak about what's the actionable new trend to make us the best is gonna be the organizations that are gonna thrive longer and have more sustainability.

And it's really an amazing thing that, and I, I can speak obviously mostly about football when I say this, but the hierarchical nature of football doesn't really allow fundamentally for the discussions about, hey, the backup quarterback's struggling. He's in the tank. He needs to go see Scott Goldman.

Like right now. It's taken a, a long time for us to get there as a society and probably even longer, uh, in the world of football. And I, you know, I've had the privilege of being in league meetings for a couple decades. One of the best things that really resonated with me with Roger Goodell was he talked about, Hey, we are at the top of the food chain in football.

Everything we do is gonna impact college football, high school football, hot Warner. So it could be things like concussions, but there's no doubt, like mental health is definitely where it needs to be, which is a much bigger part of that conversation. 

[00:25:14] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And Scott, you've been at the front of that both.

At the college level and at the pro level. Alicia, have you seen there, in terms of people being able to be open, as opposed to Mike almost accidentally referred to it there as, oh, that guy's a little screwed up. Let's send him to Scott, versus, Hey, Scott's just around and he even talks to you before you're screwed up.

That's part of what the optimal practice would look like. I assume, in your eyes, have you seen it evolve that way? 

[00:25:39] Scott Goldman: Yeah, so I got a couple of thoughts, right? There are certain parts of the country and parts of the world where people treat a psychologist, almost like a celebrity or a rockstar. You go to New York City cocktail party and they'll go, oh, let me tell you about how great my therapist is.

Yeah, and then there's other parts of the country or the world where you're often a dirty little secret, and that's why I think sometimes it's interesting because confidentiality is such a big part of the nature of mental health service. But I don't think confidentiality is meant to be about secrecy.

It's really meant to be bringing it back to what Mike started the conversation with. It's about trust. So for me, one of the things that I like to do before I onboard with an organization is I say to the powers that be like the Mike Tannenbaum is I say, okay, how much information do you want from these sessions?

I'm always looking for the answer of, I don't want any information from the sessions. I want there to be a level of trust that we can trust you, that you'll do what's in the best interest of the individual, which will inherently be in the best interest of the teen. And we know that if you act in a trustworthy way, that they will utilize the resource.

And so going back to like the Dolphins, Mike. And GA as the three leaders of that organization. When I asked them, who do you want me to report to, and all that kind of stuff, they were like, we don't really want you to report to anyone. We want you to be a freestanding entity. That can be a resource for everyone.

And I'll tell you one of the biggest compliments that I got and a lesson that I learned was a free agent, a, a recent signed free agent came into my room. He said, Hey, I've talked, I've asked around people say you're really good at what you do. You're a really good guy, and that you're trustworthy. And the thing that I learned is the locker room never lies.

The locker room never lies. So I think the only way, it's funny 'cause people will sometimes focus on, oh, it's the practitioner that is the success. I, I think it's the environment and how the, the table is set that, of course, the practitioner's success or failure in being a resource in the room. 

[00:27:45] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Well, let me pick up that metaphor of the table being said. I think I couldn't agree with you more. And that table being said, I've experienced that. I'm not gonna name names of teams, but there's been a spectrum of coach and GM saying, do your worst. Knock yourself out. And, and the players, like you said, they know that they, they build trust and there's others where the GM wants weekly reports on who you're talking to, how long you're talking to 'em, et cetera.

That's part of setting the table up. Mike, I'm gonna throw to you, in terms of setting the table, there are a lot of people who, who listen here, who don't run NFL franchises who might be in the military or in an educational. Or they could just be in corporate world and they're leaders in that space, but they wanna engender an environment of more trust, more openness, and potentially have resources like Scott around what does it look like to set the table for someone like a Scott Goldman to allow for conversations of both mental health, but also more importantly for people like you of performance to help them to set the table.

[00:28:39] Mike Tannenbaum: Yeah, I think you have go in with alignment, which is. I wanted Scott to work his superpowers. That's what good organizations do, right? Like they cobbled together a team of people that have respective expertise. And I said, look, you're part of the team. We trust you, and to the extent we need to know things, we're gonna trust your judgment.

And, uh, we're good in terms of, if we don't hear from you, that's fine. Like your job is to help us get better and make people better and and help them. You bring up a great point, Patty, which is, I just think you need alignment. That's so critical. 'cause if you don't have alignment going in, I don't think you have chance for long-term success.

[00:29:17] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. The long-term success. Is more important. Sometimes it'll take a year of what's going on here, but making sure you're strong with that alignment early on is important. Curious Mike, how did you become aware of that? Was there some hits and misses along the way, or was that just an in a gut feel having been around the locker room long enough to know we've gotta protect that upfront?

[00:29:37] Mike Tannenbaum: I think the best teacher of my experiences have been the locker room, the veterans that I could rely on and talk about things like how do we handle. Clinicians that could come in and really help us and what's the appropriate way to do it? And it's a simple question, pat. It's a very complicated answer because you get into situations where guys are just more comfortable paying for their own mental health outside the purview of the team.

It's not a one size fits all approach. You're asking a very interesting question, but the successes we've got with. Dr. Goldman, uh, a woman named Dr. Hickman at the Jets who was fantastic as well. It's like anything else, it was trust in a relationship and sometimes those things didn't happen o overnight.

[00:30:19] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, and I think that's for, I would say that goes two ways there as well, where the ability of the clinician to be comfortable and secure themselves. I remember, so a, a mentor of mine, Dr. Richard Ginsburg at the Boston Red Sox would said to me once that in order to be good in this area, you need to be fat and rich.

And I was like, what? That doesn't sound right. It's like having a fat dietician doesn't make sense. And he said metaphorically, like, you need to be well fed. You don't need to. Services in order to survive. And you don't need their love and their affection. It's just, I'm here to service you. And if you don't want, then that's cool.

And I think with, with someone, I, I've always had this vibe from you, Scott, but uh, interested in your thoughts that if the clinician you hire comes in and they don't feel buck hurt, if a player goes and gets their own person outside the program, that allows there to be two way trust. It's not like he's insecure and he needs to be the guy.

Am am I right there? Scott, what are your thoughts on that? 

[00:31:14] Scott Goldman: Yeah, what I would say is I have found. When you have everybody aligned, mission alignment, as Mike was talking about, it takes about three months to get onboarded. If there's all these agendas and like Game of Thrones and all that, it can take three years to get really onboarded.

And I think one of the key indicators is, uh, the locker room doesn't lie. Just to go with that theme, and to go back to your question specifically is I think people know. I think not just athletes, but people in general. They know they, there is a clinical radar that we all possess. Where you go is this guy, what's his angle?

Especially in sports and elite performance where there's a lot of people with different angles and agendas coming at them. So it's always like, all right, what's the ask? And so the way that I always think about it, going back to Ginsburg and what he was saying is like, you have to be fat. And all that is is, I think it's also sometimes the best relationships are where you don't need anything from anyone.

Mm-hmm. I've never asked for an autograph. I've never asked for a jersey. Like, like, like that's just not how it works. Yeah. And I think they know that. They feel that. So when you act with humility and to be of service. I think they feel that and they recognize that when you, uh, come in loud or if you come in where you're asking for selfies or, Hey, can I put this on a website?

I think they recognize that pretty quickly too. 

[00:32:46] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And that hurts the trust for sure. Um, pivoting a little bit here, because 

[00:32:52] Mike Tannenbaum: can I just add something that I think Scott made a subtle, really important point, which is. There's so many people that come in to, to work with professional athletes that don't understand what Scott just said, which is you really wanna have meaningful equity in a relationship before you ask for anything.

And that goes well beyond Scott's expertise. And it could be things like any sort of, the support staff could be a chiropractor, a dentist. It's an interesting phenomenon. They see their facility as maybe the only oasis. In their life where it's like a safe place where no one's asking them for things. And I think what Scott said is really important, especially when you get mental health and trust, which is if this guy or woman is asking you for an autograph picture or a selfie, like they're just like everybody else.

And I think you could create a lot of value quickly when you have an elegance about yourself and a professionalism. And I.

One of the things that Scott was very effective at is like you wanna meld into the environment and be part of the solution, not be one of the countless thousands of people to say, Hey, gimme that autograph, or gimme that selfie. 

[00:34:02] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, a hundred percent. And, and taking that out of the pro sports context to those who aren't living in that environment or working in that environment.

It really is as simple as that. I think it's Stephen Covey. Model of trust, of competence and, and character. Like you need to be good at your job. Scott can't turn up and be a Muppet and survive in that arena, but the character part is perhaps more important in those high cost environments where if you screw this up, you could cost me millions of dollars or in the military could cost someone their life.

It's about being able to know that person there is in it for themselves and they do care about me first and foremost, and that's. In pro sport while Mike, you've just mentioned there in terms of getting autographs and selfies, that's the tangible evidence of someone being in it for themselves as opposed to just being, being on their own thing.

Now, for those, for those of you who who are curious, we're gonna dive in now to the most high pressure situation I can concoct 'cause it we're. One of the other things besides the definition of toughness that we talk about, we've had people on there on here who are ER doctors in Stanford, who are Navy Seals fighter pilots, like people who deal with.

Life and death decision. Thankfully, far as I know, none of us on this room have had to deal with that level of, if we screw this one thing up, someone dies in the next second. But we deal with some pretty high stakes things. And you two more so than I. And so I'm curious, in a draft room, let's drop ourselves into a draft room.

We don't have to name a year, but you've been in Plenty mic and, but you've been around them in multiple sports when it comes to making a high pressure decision in those environments. So let's say you're on the clock. The order just shifted significantly because of who the previous two teams picked or new information has come to light of.

There's a trade on the table. Talk us through the pressure that is felt in that room, Mike and then Scott, maybe you can narrate it as a almost a director's cut of what's happening psychologically through these people and how we optimize that decisions on the pressure. 

[00:35:56] Mike Tannenbaum: We live that in a very, uh, public way.

Uh, Laremy Tunsil in 2016 was on our board and unfortunately for him, there was a video that came out soon before the draft. That was just bad timing. He was a good person that made a mistake. We had a good player at his position, Brandon Albert, and we did not need a left tackle. And we're sitting there, we're like, there's no way the best player in the draft's gotta be there at 13 anyway, so, you know, we don't have to worry about it.

Next thing, it's nine, it's 10, it's 11, it's, oh my gosh, he may be there. And we all had this pit in the stomach and it was the first year our management team was together. And so there was certainly like some breaking in feeling with that. That became one of those situations. Like you talk about high performance and I, I'll tell you, it was a great lesson for me, great lesson for my kids.

Uh, in the most consequential moments, you wanna fall back on your preparation. And we had a great area scout guiding. Matt Winston, who had incredible information on Laremy Tunsil, who is a fantastic person, great teammate, loved football, had a great relationship with his family, and obviously was a good person that made a mistake and in the most like pressure packed moment of making a decision that could impact your franchise for years to, we fell back on the most mundane, rudimentary, basic report of this guy loves.

We're making this huge decision and we're like, you know what? These other teams were certainly scared away by what was happening. And we felt great about our preparation and made what we thought was the best decision for us. 

[00:37:32] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, A fantastic example. Very tangible example for people who followed the NFL that will, that'll be clear on that memory.

And it was a huge buzz around that, that incident and the, the subsequent drop in the standings for Laremy and then the move that you guys made. And it struck me at the time as a, obviously a tangible thing that would. Reflect on a team poorly if it went south, but it seemed to be a fairly short term move.

And so I'm interested, Scott, from a psychological standpoint, what's going on for executives like Mike and everyone else is in that room, and the owners and coaches who are involved in this decision weighing up what the public will say about this move and what the potential costs and embarrassment might be if we take the kid and it doesn't work out versus the longer term, trusting your process. Okay, we're gonna take the pun, excuse the pun, that Mike and Co did with Laremy. 

[00:38:21] Scott Goldman: Part of what I omitted from my career trajectory Opus, was that I spent six years working in a psychiatric hospital. I. I bring it up now because you said, Hey, the experience of life or death decision making, like I've actually been in a few life or death, like psychiatric riots, more than a few suicidal, actively suicidal individuals who are in the midst of an attempt and.

I would be curious to hear if emergency department physicians and other special operations and military would say something as similar of what I experienced, which was I actually found the life or death moment to have more clarity in vision and execution than the things. That, and I will underline this word, perceived life or death threat.

So I actually think like the executives and the coaches that are deciding, should we go for it on fourth down? Should we select a guy who had a bad timed video be released? There is so much more discussion and debate because it's a perceived threat than an actual threat that I think in some ways almost makes it a more difficult decision, harder.

Yeah, it's a harder decision to pick a guy, and yet the lifesaving moment is a more significant or important decision. So I think there's an interesting paradox there. 

[00:39:44] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. 

[00:39:45] Scott Goldman: Now going to answer your question specifically of how do you help people? I think a big part of it is about risk management, loss aversion decision making.

So there's all kinds of literature in psychology about choosing to lose versus, you know, it's like playing not to lose versus playing to win, or when you've got two decisions as you get closer to committing to one. It will start to look less attractive than the one that you're moving further away from.

So I think that there's a lot of elements to helping people go through the process that psychology can play. I think one of the biggest ones is the confirmation bias that comes with excitement. So I think there, there's two things. One is confirmation bias where all of a sudden. We only look at the data that seems to align with what we already believe.

I love this guy. And then the other one is group polarization, where somebody in the room goes, I love this guy for X, Y, and Z reasons. And then somebody else jumps on that and goes, I love him for 1, 2, 3 reasons. And then before you know it, you've got the whole room believing that this is Superman and you're not looking at what are his kryptonites and stuff like that.

And so I think being mindful of really sound psychological training can help guide these folks to making well-informed decisions. 

[00:41:07] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. I, I love that. And that's again, a reason why I mentioned not just having psychology in the room when things are going bad. It's the in advance preparation of even executives, coaches for decision and play calling.

The ability to manage their own states and have their own processes that'll optimize that for when the shit does hit the fan. Now I know we we're coming up on the hour and we wanna make sure we respect everyone's time. Mike, you've probably got a thousand phone calls waiting for you and for those who can't see the footage, Mike has transitioned to the car during the interview.

That's how much is going on and we appreciate you still being here. So to start to tie a bow on it, I wanna throw it out there. For you, Mike. There's a couple of things we end with, and this one I stole off a, a guest speaker who has been at a number of NFL teams, John Gordon, who has a, an exercise where he talks about a hero, a hardship, and a highlight.

We've spoken a little bit about hardships there, but I'm interested in what's the good stuff that when you go through all of the stress, the insane hours, the press conferences, the New York media calling for your head, all sorts of things that happen at the top level when you are leading organizations of.

There's a lot on the line and you have to deal with a lot of stress, but there's some good shit in there. Well, what's been the best thing you at the highlight of your career, Mike, we'll start with you. That gives you reason to keep dealing with all that bullshit. 

[00:42:25] Mike Tannenbaum: Yeah, boy Patty, that's a great question.

Gosh, there's been a lot. I really enjoy helping others to get to where they wanna go. So seeing friends of mine become GMs and head coaches were meaningful. But if I had to say one thing, I don't share this often, but since you asked, I was the youngest GM in the NFL when I got hired by the Jets, and my father worked in public transportation and always gave more to my sister and I that he did to himself.

And I would say having the means to buy him his first new car. He never bought for himself 'cause he always gave to my sister and I. And then my family and I, we set up a scholarship at the University of Massachusetts where I went, where we actually provide, uh, assistance to people that wanna pursue their dreams.

So I got to pursue mine. And at the time, Woody Johnson, the Jets gave me the opportunity of a lifetime and I was able to take care of my dad in a way that was meaningful to me and then help others get to where they wanna go. So. I think those two sort of like moments were really meaningful in my career.

[00:43:30] Paddy Steinfort: Super cool. I, I love, I get a little, uh, little feeling here. Word use. Lucky enough to be in a job and even on this podcast where those sort of conversations we get to the root of why we put up with shit, why we do the tough stuff is often a really rewarding part of these conversations that we sometimes don't have often enough.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna flip it over to you there, Scott. I assume you get to experience that more often than most as well. People open up to you. To a level that don't often talk about in a boardroom or on the sideline, but what is your hope for beyond just those one-on-one moments where you get some reward from helping an individual with some really deep stuff, what do you hope for the industry?

1. At large because you, you are across it in, in a number of sports. You're a leader in both the measurement and the application of psychology. What are you hoping say, for the next five or 10 years happens in the industry and even in society at large? In this area? 

[00:44:25] Scott Goldman: In the area of sports psychology? 

[00:44:27] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah.Or even just mental performance in gen, because there are some people who apply some of what you've said to making a decision in their own business. They're a small business owner. Parent even. 

[00:44:38] Scott Goldman: I guess the thing that I would hope for is clarity. If someone goes to a dentist, they know what they're getting, like they're good dentists and they're bad dentists, but there's some uniformity in what a dentist is.

I think something that we've done as a disservice to the people we serve is we have not done a good job of providing clarity. There becomes some ambiguity and I think ambiguity invites the con artist or the snake oil salesman because I think there are, I, I, this is just my humble opinion and I don't mean it to be a flex on myself or anything like that, but I think this work is really hard.

1. I really do. I think one of the things that we do is we're kinda like ducks, right? We look really still. We try to be calm in the room and all that, but we're paddling mentally. We're paddling really hard. I think human behavior is really complex. Human interactions is a multiplier of that. Understanding.

It is hard, and I think what happens is the people who do it really well, they make it look easy. And I think sometimes that invites people who might not have the depth or the breadth to do the work. To come up with maybe some kind of clever phrase or some kind of meme where it's a picture of themselves with a quote of themselves that say something like, if you believe it, you can achieve it, and all that.

And I'm going, that's just not what we do. And so I think if there was something I could hope for from our industry, it would be clarity so that way it would be easier for the Mike Tannenbaum’s of the world to identify really good 

[00:46:15] Paddy Steinfort: tissues. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't agree more. I remember hiring one of the first people I hired at Toronto, Rafael El Dubois.

Love the guy is, uh, was really tired in his first year and he couldn't work out why? I was like, bro, you, you work harder than almost everyone else who turns up because you are honest. As soon as you walk in the door. You, you, I, I'd never used a duck metaphor. I will use it now. But you are always thinking, you're always analyzing, you're always seeing behavior and thinking how it applies to what you've done with that guy or another guy.

And I end up referring a little bit to our role. Sometimes when you are embedded with the team is like a closer. In baseball you might look like you are doing nothing, but when you are cold on, you have to nail it. And that's, that's, uh, a really strong metaphor that you use there. I like it. And, and couldn't agree more.

Mike, anything on from, from you on that that you want to add on? We're gonna finish it up soon, but any hope you have in this area where it's obviously something that you value, you've brought it in and, and nurtured it in an environment to help both the players and the staff improve their performance and improve the franchises chances.

What do you see as the future for mental performance in sport and even in a broader level in society? 

[00:47:24] Scott Goldman: Before he answers that, you should also note, like Mike invested with the New York Jets, with Sarah Hickman and with the Miami Dolphins with me. Like he invested in this before it was mandated by the league.

I think there's something to be said for like when you talk about a competitive advantage, he invested in this resource before the league said this resource needs to exist. 

[00:47:47] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And you can see the teams who are checking the boxes versus actually doing it. Right. Mike? 

[00:47:52] Mike Tannenbaum: Yeah, no thanks guy. Appreciate it.

But I think it's a bigger, broader conversation around, uh, owners, Steve Ross, Woody Johnson gave us the resources and generally I would've have taken either job without it. I think it's about performance, and I think if we use that word, Patty, 10, 15 years ago, we would talk about, you know, how strong they are, how fast they run, how high they could jump.

I think performance now is such a more meaningful word because mental performance, mental toughness, mental health, all that is so critically important. And that's why people like Scott are a big part of putting together a winning program. It's not just about how far they could throw and, and all the other things we can measure objectively.

And I think the word performance now means so much more, and I think for the better and a healthier circle. Than it maybe did 15, 20 years ago. And what your hope is that when players go through the system now, um, when their time has come, where they move on and they transition to society, they do it in a meaningful way that hopefully they've been enriched not only economically, but in a more holistic way.

And they're, they're given skills that. Apply to whatever they're doing once their playing days are over. 

[00:49:10] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. Great. Uh, a great wish and really ties in a little bit there with Scott about more clarity and more consistency so that that transition into life is, is easier. And hopefully in the end, not only it helps us perform better.

It gives us more of those moments, Mike, that you mentioned before with your, your father. That's really what it ends up being all about. Uh, I wanna thank you both for your time getting on here. It's, uh, it's fantastic to be able to pick two of the biggest, brightest, best brains in the business. Mike, good luck for the season coming up on A SPN and for all of the teams and communities that you are still a mentor and leader to.

And Scott, good luck with the Golden State Warriors. A great example of the fact that the best of the best tend to find the best, uh, if, if it's good enough for the Golden State Warriors. Then anyone else who's considering it as a leader of a team should probably have a think about it. Scott, Mike, appreciate your time and, and thanks again.

[00:50:01] Mike Tannenbaum: Thank you. It's been an honor. Thank this. Terrific. Really appreciate it.