Lindsey Vonn & Angela Duckworth: The REAL Secret Behind Olympic Gold and Genius-Level Achievement

If talent is the ticket, grit is the engine. And my guests today know exactly how to build it.

I sat down with Olympic skiing legend Lindsey Vonn and MacArthur Genius Grant-winning psychologist Angela Duckworth to break down what truly fuels greatness.

Lindsey is a four-time overall World Cup champion and one of the greatest skiers in history. Angela, a leading psychologist and author of Grit, has spent her career studying what makes high performers tick. 

In this episode, they show what it really takes to push past limits, train your mind like a champion, and show up when it matters most.

You’ll learn:

• How Lindsey trained her mind for resilience
• How to stay motivated when no one’s watching
• The power of self-talk and visualization in high-pressure situations
  

 

Resources Mentioned:

- Angela’’s TED Talk on Grit: https://youtu.be/H14bBuluwB8?si=2R4qwDpO_RYRiQXd

- No Stupid Questions Podcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/no-stupid-questions/id1510056899 

 

Connect with Angela:

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/angeladuckworth/ 

🌐 Website: https://angeladuckworth.com 

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/angeladuckw 

 

Connect with Lindsey:

📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/lindseyvonn 

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/lindsey-vonn/ 

🌐 Website: https://www.lindseyvonn.com 

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/lindseyvonn 

Follow me for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: @paddysgram
💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort
✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Angela Lee Duckworth: I don't really believe that many people are really able to do things completely on their own. 

[00:00:04] Lindsey Vonn: You have to be able to do the daily grind. You have to be able to fight through injuries or obstacles like that is grit.

[00:00:12] Angela Lee Duckworth: I think people are happiest when they are pursuing goals, not when they have just accomplished them.

[00:00:18] Lindsey Vonn: The coaches are more of a psychologist than they are a coach.

[00:00:29] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the toughness podcast. I'm your host, Patty Steinford. And today we have what I would say is a gold medal episode because we have two of the best in their field, uh, on the call at one time, uh, we have firstly Lindsey Vonn, who is the best us ski performer of all time. I may be fumbling that intro there, Lindsey, but all I know is you were and have been the best in the world.

I think, uh, okay. So Olympic gold medal, two, uh, world championships and 83 gold medals performances in the world cup. Is that correct? Something like that. 

[00:01:04] Lindsey Vonn: It is true. Just go with 83. We could go with 90, you know, whatever number that's higher than 82. We could go with that as well. 

[00:01:13] Paddy Steinfort: Great. So welcome, Lindsey Vonn.

Appreciate you joining us. And, uh, our other guest is, uh, I'm lucky enough to say I have worked with Angela, uh, I'd call her a colleague and a friend, but Angela is the best in the world in an academic sense, uh, has been awarded the MacArthur Genius Grant for her work on the MacArthur Program. Uh, research on passion and perseverance, primarily initially with school children and helping them learn, but it's spread into so many different areas.

Angela, welcome and thanks for joining us. 

[00:01:40] Angela Lee Duckworth: Hey, it's great to be here with both of you. 

[00:01:42] Paddy Steinfort: Well, I would say it's an honor for me to be here with both of you. You, you two have interacted together. I'm interested to, to just hear a little more about how your paths crossed, firstly, and then we'll take it from there.

[00:01:52] Angela Lee Duckworth: Lindsey, can you remember how we met? I remember having dinner in New York and I'm like, wait, how did we first get introduced? I think it was, you just said, I was obsessed with your. I was gonna say the opposite. I was like, probably I was stalking you because, I mean, Lindsey is what I study, right? Like, like, my whole research program is trying to figure out how people become Lindsey Vonn.

I feel like I must have stalked you, Lindsey. 

[00:02:16] Lindsey Vonn: For some communication, I know that I reached out to you to try to be a part of my foundation because I was actually trying to figure out a way to teach kids grit. Oh, that's right. With girls in your camp and like. Okay, I reached out to you and yeah, I talk about you all the 

[00:02:36] Angela Lee Duckworth: time and talk about each other very positively all the time.

A little more like conflict ridden, if that makes for better podcasting. 

[00:02:43] Paddy Steinfort: I'm good with this. This is a mutual admiration society right now. I'm with that because a lot of people admire the both of you and partly like both of you have mentioned there that this connection between the two of you, but also Angela, your work and Lindsey will explore that stuff that you've done with children as well.

Like it starts from a good place. It's not about, uh, I want to be the best in the world, although that probably exists somewhere in there, but a lot of the initial spark is like, how do I help this kid be better or deal with stuff better? And I'll jump to you because that's really where the, a lot of your work started as a, as a teacher.

Before you became a psychology professor and worldwide leader on grit, you were teaching kids, and that really sparked this journey. Like, can you recall, is there ever a moment where you're like, that was the point where I'm like, oh, Timmy Smith over there really needs something different. 

[00:03:33] Angela Lee Duckworth: I taught in my, uh, twenties, and if I really am honest, you know, like, when did I get interested in achievement and what people could do when they're motivated?

It definitely precedes my twenties. It probably goes all the way back to my childhood, you know, my dad was so obsessed with achievement and I think I grew up in a family where it was always talked about, like, you know, you know, when, when people talk about being the greatest or like, I mean, it was like dinnertime conversation, like, who's the greatest physicist?

Who is the greatest artist? Who's the greatest CEO? Like, what's so, you know, That is my, I'm not saying that was a good thing, by the way, it just, it is a thing. And then when I became a teacher, I was, um, I was pretty, uh, like disappointed in my own, I was frustrated in my own inability to motivate my kids. I mean, when I study people like Lindsey, what I find so remarkable is, is not only the talent, which I think, you know, we can talk about separately, but, but really like, I mean, extraordinary motivation, like.

That is consistent and at such high levels over time that to me is actually the remarkable element like their character and I just was not so great at bringing that out in my middle school and high school students. And I thought like if I could understand it. Better, right? Like if I can understand a Lindsey Vonn, then maybe, and I think this might motivate Lindsey, like, you know, the idea of helping young girls.

It's like, if we can kind of give them like a user's guide to their own motivation, maybe they won't have to, you know, take as long a trajectory of developing it. Or maybe, you know, they can kind of develop it in more efficient ways than otherwise. 

[00:05:10] Paddy Steinfort: That's a great way to, I mean, you mentioned their talent, because it does take time for that to evolve and to show out, but Lindsey, you were skiing from the age of.

Like early and so like there might have been some talent there, but that's a long time to be learning something. You feel like you were innately talented or it was like I just happened to do it a lot and for a long time. I 

[00:05:32] Lindsey Vonn: think it was a combination of of all three of those things. I think I definitely had an inherent talent to it.

But it didn't come right away. It took until I was probably nine or ten to where I really started to show that I was getting quite like I kind of hit this point where I started to really learn very quickly. And I started, um, skiing a lot faster and I started moving up in the age ranks, but it took me kind of a while to get going.

And then once I got it, I really took off. But, you know, I definitely took different steps along the way where I had to. You know, re motivate myself. I wasn't really the person that wanted to work out very hard when I was growing up, so I had to learn how to do that because I reached a point in skiing where I wasn't getting any better, and you know, my dad had a lot of great analogies like sugar get off the pot, and so I had to like figure it out.

[00:06:28] Angela Lee Duckworth: Hey, so here's what I want to know, Patty, if you agree with me, then we can ask Lindsey, like, together, but, like, the shift, maybe, that happened around nine or ten, whereas, like, before you were that age, well, you were skiing a lot, but, like, but things were different, like, you weren't as focused and motivated.

Was it the pep talks that your dad had? Or, I don't know if it was the pep talks, but, like, what do you think happened? 

[00:06:49] Lindsey Vonn: I am really, this is my belief, and my dad disagrees with me, but, um, I think it's when I met Higamu Street when I was nine that really kind of, like, triggered something. Like, in my t shirt, right?

Like, you have photos, yeah, in your book, 

[00:07:02] Angela Lee Duckworth: I think, actually, yeah. 

[00:07:03] Lindsey Vonn: Yeah, exactly. And I just, I never really Imagine skiing is as being like a career or as being something that was tangible. It was more so something that I did for fun that I enjoyed doing with my friend and I wanted to be really good at, you know, I wanted to win, but I didn't understand like long term what that meant.

And then when I saw her physically in real life, I'd seen her on TV and I was like, wow, okay, this is what I want to be. And then I said, Dad, how do I get there? And then, you know, we planned it out that I would be 2002 Olympics, and that would be a time that I could, like, I could make it. And so we kind of worked backwards from there and, like, made a whole plan, like, made a, an 8 year plan, 10 year plan, and, uh, And that's when I kind of really became a lot more driven and focused.

And he thinks that I would have done it anyways. I think it's possible that I would have found something else to motivate me, but I don't know. I think that's really what did it. 

[00:07:59] Paddy Steinfort: The tangible, the ability to see it and know that it's possible is something that a few guests have mentioned. Lacey Evans from WWE being one that will potentially circle back to that.

But you use the phrase there. Whatever it takes, like I saw this and I was like, okay, now it's, it's whatever it takes. You weren't working out that hard. You had to learn how to motivate yourself. And one of the things I like to do with people who come on the show is ask like, what's your definition of toughness that often comes up when people say, well, toughness is doing whatever it takes.

How would you describe? Toughness in your experience, either you've seen it or clearly you've lived it to be at it this long and to be that good. What does toughness mean to you? I 

[00:08:38] Lindsey Vonn: think there are different levels of toughness. I think there's also different levels of understanding of the toughness that you have, that you possess.

I always thought at certain levels of my career that I was tough and then I was faced with another obstacle or challenge and figured out, okay, wow, I have to overcome this. And I realized I'm that much tougher than I was before. I think injury is being probably some of the most challenging moments of my career, but also in terms of, you know, learning how to work out hard, you know, for a long time, when I started to work out hard, I felt like, wow, this is really hard, you know, I'm working all the time and you know, this is hard.

And then I got a trainer from. Um, who lived in Monaco, who was Polish, and he really pushed me to the absolute limit, and um, I'd never been pushed in that way before. And I actually kind of used that as my toughness factor, you know, am I pushing myself as hard as he did? And so I, I've had To change my scale of, you know, what toughness is throughout my career and it's, you know, it's a process.

It's a learning process. You realize what you can handle as a person as an athlete. And if you really want to make it and get through it, then you will and you'll find a way 

[00:09:47] Paddy Steinfort: again. Certainly back to whatever it takes. But it's interesting. You mentioned levels there. That's something that yeah. I've only, uh, heard one other performer say, but I personally agree with it.

There's not only a definition of it, but your idea of working hard versus this other person's idea of working hard can be really different. And you also mentioned the discovering what's in yourself already, and I'll circle back to that. But Angela, I'm interested in your, while we're on the definitions of toughness from one of the toughest women I've ever.

[00:10:15] Angela Lee Duckworth: Actually, like, I am not, I'm just somebody who studies people. Lindsey Vonn, I am not myself, like, a 

[00:10:20] Paddy Steinfort: I disagree with that. Uh, yeah, I was gonna say, come on, time out. I think 

[00:10:23] Angela Lee Duckworth: that's true. I mean, maybe what I can say that's most useful, though, is to just resonate and, like, amplify what Lindsey was saying, because I knew she was saying it was different.

Kinds of toughness, too, right? And I think there are at least two, and I think Lindsey named them like one, like injury and setbacks or things that happen that are like really hard to deal with. That's like where you need the toughness that like a lot of people call resilience, right? But there is another kind of toughness, which I also think that extremely high performers have, which is that time when you talk about working out hard or being pushed to your absolute limit, that's every day.

That's not like, oh, You know, this year, this terrible thing happened, how resilient am I going to be? But more like every morning and every afternoon and every evening, I'm going to do the following. So sometimes I think of it as like a like capital letter P perseverance in the face of real difficulty, and then lowercase p perseverance, that daily grind.

And I think sometimes, um, Little girls and boys who watch television or they like read a story, you know, in Sports Illustrated, they might have an appreciation for the kind of like uppercase P perseverance because it's like what movies are made out of. But I think real champions are also like all those thousands of hours that are not on film, right?

I mean, one sociologist that I met who went and he embedded himself in swim teams from like the local corner swim team to like all the way up to Olympic hopefuls. He was like, nobody actually studied, like, he's like, it's so boring, I mean, if you just, like, spend six years with, like, you know, an Olympic hopeful swimmer, it's basically, they're just, like, practicing for hours in the pool and, like, going to the gyms, like, you know, it's not really filmable, um, and I do think that's why sometimes there's a misunderstanding of greatness that, like, it looks very You You know, there's a part of, you know, yeah, exactly.

It looks so shiny. But like, how many people are there? It's yiffle. 

[00:12:16] Paddy Steinfort: They say, they say in coaches meetings sometimes that I'm able to sit in on that they talk about, it's not sexy. Like this isn't a sexy thing that. Toughness for the movies is, yeah, you know, Rocky beats the, beats the guy from Russia and it's all fantastic, but you've talked there, Lindsey, you said layers, Angela, I'll describe what you just spoke there about as dimensions, like there's a, can I spike once and what's my maximum capacity versus can I do that two days in a row or can I do it every day in a row for four years to like, that's one of the things about the Olympics that is so fascinating that people were able to do that with zero reward.

Maybe even zero progress at times for months on end, but just with the, I'm going to keep doing this because I have an eight year plan as you just described, Lindsey. And, and part of that ability to do the chronic thing, I'm, I want to explore this idea because for me, it kind of links with the whatever it takes.

When I woke up this morning and I knew I had A, B, C, D, and E lined up, I needed a little boost, so I got some coffee and I did a workout. But on day two, that might not be the thing that allows me to still do it. I might be, it might be more, okay, I'm going to grit my teeth and get pumped up. And there's a different types of, okay, today's challenge is this.

How am I going to overcome that? Today's challenge is I don't feel like it. Today's challenge is I'm nervous. Today's challenge is all these different things that come up day to day. Like, 

[00:13:34] Lindsey Vonn: that's the definition of grit though. All of those things together, like, that's what grit is. You have to be. Able to, you know, do the daily grind.

You have to be able to fight through, you know, injuries or obstacles like that. That is grit. You know, you don't become great at anything without. So I don't think it's a lowercase P perseverance. I think it's a grit. I 

[00:13:56] Angela Lee Duckworth: think it has both. I, I agree with the, the, like, it's inclusive of both those things.

Like, if you just have one and not the other, right? Like, you have to be able to do basically all the things that we just did. So I completely agree with you, like, Lindsey. And I wonder, like, if you just take the part where it's like consistently, daily, grinding it out, unglamorous. Can I just ask, like, because, Patty, you were saying, like, if that, if part of your, this conversation is trying to help other people, like, figure out how Lindsey, like, I'm guessing, Lindsey, that something didn't You know, it's not like four years or and more, right?

But like it wasn't like or the eight year plan I wonder whether you had a way of being rewarded that wasn't as obvious to other people Like what did keep you going for eight years on this? Like 

[00:14:39] Lindsey Vonn: I loved The daily challenge, you know, I I gave myself little small individual goals that I could accomplish every day And maybe, maybe it was more than one goal sometimes, there was three goals, maybe I only accomplished two or one, but I felt like achieving something daily gave me like a positive affirmation that I was doing a good job.

And that's what actually kept driving me and got me really into fitness is because You see the change that you create, you know, the more time you spend in the gym, the more results that you physically can see. And that's something that is very, very rewarding. Like I like those positive affirmations. And that's actually one thing outside of the competition.

That's really been a struggle for me. And retirement is that I struggle without those daily affirmations. Like I, I like. You know, accomplishing something, I like working hard and having a challenge and struggling to overcome it. You know, I like those things and I've had to find different ways of getting that that's not from my culture.

[00:15:44] Paddy Steinfort: That's a great look. That's a challenge. I know I played, I had no idea the sporting career that you did. I'm not going to pretend. I was paid to play sport for a little while. And I had the same thing when it stops, when the challenge stops, there was like, okay, why would I go to the gym if I don't have to?

It hurts. And it's kind of a pain in the butt. And. Take it away from athletes. A lot of people who live, who work at a high level, it could be surgeons. It could be financial traders. It could be artists who perform in front of thousands of people. It could be people in the military where they have a daily fix of like, there's this challenge in a burst of adrenaline and I work and I get rewarded or punished, but I know what's going on.

And then that goes away and it's kind of like, you know, you come home from deployment and then what happens? It's just like I get up and I have breakfast. Like, how did you Translate that. 

[00:16:32] Lindsey Vonn: It was really, really hard for me and I, I mean, it's not obviously as challenging as coming back from deployment. But it's an entirely different life and lifestyle, and I had about like eight really, really hard months where I was really, really depressed, and I just didn't know what to do with myself.

It was very, very overwhelming, but again, you know, the one thing that kind of got me through everything was finding a way to work out and, um, my dogs. I think that's one thing that veterans like I think every, I think every human should have a dog. We will definitely have a nicer place. Don't you think people would be nicer to each other?

Well, yeah, I mean, if we were just nice to each other as we are to animals, and that's honestly why I got my first dog and all the rest of them. I have two big dogs and one little dog, Lucy, um, but the Leo was my first dog and I got him. When I was going into my second knee surgery, it was back to back knee surgeries within an eight month span.

I was gonna miss then the 2014 Olympics, and I was like, I can't do this. You know, like I, I need someone that loves me no matter what happens, you know, if I You know, can't speak in or you know, whatever happens, someone that's going to be happy when I come home every day. And so I got Leo and he had been run over by a car and he had pins in his knees.

So he was like, yes, we're two peas in a pot. Then, of course, he was depressed because he was by himself. He needed he need any pack. So I got him a friend there. And then while traveling on the World Cup, obviously my two big dogs can't travel. So I just kind of got to this point where I was freaking out on the road.

I'm like, I just. But hit the panning button. I'm like, I need a dog right now. 

[00:18:07] Paddy Steinfort: You panic bought a dog? 

[00:18:08] Lindsey Vonn: I did. Yep. I was in panic mode. I was like, I need a freaking dog right now before I lose him on me. Well, there are 

[00:18:15] Angela Lee Duckworth: so many less healthy ways to like, get your fix on a damn small dog. Like, do you, do you feel like the dog is not only a source of unconditional love, which I do think champions need, which is another myth that like, you know, that like, if you're a real invincible champion that you don't need love, I think you, the opposite.

You need more love, exactly. You need more support. But like, do you like that a dog needs you? Like, do you feel like you need 

[00:18:42] Lindsey Vonn: to be needed? That is what, when I retired, you know, same with veterans. That's what got me going. Like, I, I didn't have to. Take my dogs out and feed them. I wouldn't have gotten a bet, you know, there's no, like, what's the point?

I have no job. I, there's nothing exciting going on and not winning anything. I'm not skiing fast. I'm not even driving my car fast. Like I'm just, it would have been a lot more difficult. I really. I think they have a huge place in my life, and I need them, and they need me, and that relationship is probably one of the most healthy relationships I've ever had in my life, to be honest.

[00:19:17] Paddy Steinfort: You mentioned, you mentioned the word pac may, and Angela, you chimed in as a, yep, you need unconditional love, but also, That you need to be needed the idea of having a pack to support you, which is, uh, I didn't expect when we started talking about dogs that it would be useful. But here it is like to be a champion or to be gritty angel.

What is your research say about like the need for a pack or a support crew like? How does that help someone be gree or be tough? 

[00:19:44] Angela Lee Duckworth: I mentioned this, like, sociologist that I love, and maybe I should give his name too. His name is Dan Chambliss. And, um, he said, actually, after I had written the book, I invited him to give a talk.

And, uh, he summarized it so well. He, he, he started off his talk by saying, like, say you want to learn French. Trust me, it's just like a metaphor or whatever. Like, and he's like, well, you could, like, you know, buy a book on French. And he's like. But you're probably not going to learn French very well. He's like, but then you could like, maybe get, you know, Rosetta Stones.

He didn't listen to that. He's like, but that's like, but you can go to classes, like, but you can get a tutor. He's like, but you don't really want to learn French? Go to France and live in France. And that's one of his observations of anybody who's trying to do anything. But like when you are embedded in, uh, A culture, a team and network like everyone is getting up at four in the morning and do it like it's almost impossible to imagine how people can do things that are great outside of a context and within a group where everybody else is basically supporting them and also like part of this whole ethos and even Roger Bannister, who, of course, like is the person who You know, supposedly coached himself to break the four minute mile.

Like, I read his biography, but then I also read the stuff that his contemporaries wrote. And I actually think even that was a bit of a myth. Like, he didn't just coach himself. Like, he was embedded in a whole group of people who were also interested in that. And he did have a coach. I don't think he even coached himself.

Anyway, he had a coach named Frantz Stampfel. So, so I don't really believe that many people are, are really able to do things completely on their own. I don't know. I wonder 

[00:21:19] Lindsey Vonn: what Lucy has to say. I think you need support in a lot of ways. I think you need people pushing you. I think that you can get very far if you're exceptionally motivated, but I think you really need a different level of, you know, coaching support.

You know, there's, there's a whole nother level that you can reach if you have that additional layer of teamwork around you, you know, you, you, or so much stronger, I think is human beings together. Then we are individually and I think that goes for every single level of life, you know, whether it's brainstorming in a boardroom or You know, it's running on a beach, you know, you're always gonna push yourself harder If you have someone next to you, I kind of had it both ways I sometimes trained by myself and I sometimes train with other people so I kind of had it visual and idea of what everyone else was doing.

I trained sometimes with the NFL players and in LA and I trained with track and field athletes in San Diego. Like I kind of had a mix of just seeing what other athletes do and how hard they're working and like what, you know, someone at the elite level of their sport looks like and what their training looks like and how hard they're working.

So I just always had like a broad view of, you know, hard work and where I fit in on that scale and where I could improve. I always enter every room knowing that I'm not, or thinking that I'm not the smartest person in the room. So how can I learn from everybody and that, you know, is the same for sports, you know, how can I get better?

What everyone can teach you something and that's why being around each other is good because you can. You learn something from other people. 

[00:23:00] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, having other people. I mean, Angela, you would be very familiar with this quote from Chris Peterson. Other people matter in terms of not only well being, but helping you get To where you want to go in life, you, you, one of, one of the conversations that came up with a coach the other day was around, you know, what value does a coach bring and good coaches are able to see things in you that you may not be able to see.

And I think that Lindsey, you mentioned a few questions back around the unlocking of like. Bringing out what was already there as tough, the layers of toughness. Like I, I already had this, but I didn't realize I either had it or that I needed it. And I'm curious for both of you, you've actually mentioned the, the ability for people to bring out qualities that are already there.

In your work with younger skiers, when you're trying to teach them some evangelist stuff, like how much do you look at them and say, you've already got this? Like you, I just, I'm just trying to help you bring it out versus, Hey, you need to learn this new thing. 

[00:23:54] Lindsey Vonn: Very difficult because that's the hardest part about being a coach or being a mentor is figuring out what that person needs.

And yes, some, some kids, you know, have a certain talent or they have something and they just don't realize it and you have to kind of unlock that for them. But, you know, some have low self esteem, some they're really positive and happy and they ski great, but you can tell them. Something technical a million times and they never learn it, you know, there are so many different aspects of coaching somebody that are so difficult to really specify and and they're so they're not tangible at all, you know, and I think a great coach is not necessarily a great coach because they know the particular sport better than anyone else.

It's They know their athletes better than everyone else. You know, they're able to motivate them and push them and cheer them up when they're down. And like you said, uh, Patty, just gritting their teeth when they need to, you know, sometimes, especially women, I feel like a lot of women complain, you know, like, especially when we're in groups, you know, it's like.

It's really easy to be down and like complain and a bitch and you know, it's just like that's kind of inherently what what happens a lot of the times but a good coach is able to identify that and like change the course of the group without putting them down. It's a very fine line. It's almost like The coaches are more of a psychologist than they are a coach.

[00:25:15] Angela Lee Duckworth: I think every good coach is a great psychologist. Like, that's what they are. Like, that's the whole job. I mean, not the whole job. I guess there's like, it's nice as a job. 

[00:25:23] Paddy Steinfort: They have to say the same thing. They were like, free sentences. They I'm like, okay, that's going to be the grab that I introduced the episode.

But no, that's going to be the grab. But particularly the idea of. Being able to say, okay, today you need to grit your teeth, tomorrow it's about acceptance, the next day it's about fighting, like, there are different elements of psychology that, like, today you need this, tomorrow you need that, and I'm curious, Angela, with it, because when I first met you, I'm not sure if you recall it, but I definitely do, because I happened to be in another country and stumbled onto the fact that I'd read your work twice, and I was, like, flying to America, and then it mentioned that University of Pennsylvania was in Philadelphia, which I didn't know, Sounds very far away and exotic if you're not from America or anything.

Anyway, so I land and I'm like, what are the odds I'm going to meet her? And I send out a couple of emails, somehow stumble into the psychology center and get to knock on your door. You shoo me away because you've got 20 students huddled around you, but you gave me about two minutes. And I was like, look, the real reason I want to talk to you is I'm a rookie coach.

I think it might've been my second or third year just as a. Football coach. I'm using the air quotes there just as a football coach, but I was a coach. I had this gut feel similar to what you have, but you said that a good coach or a great coach is a great psychologist. And so I was exploring your work engine and I said, how do I teach this thing?

But you like love it. Agree with it. Makes sense. How do I teach a young kid who may not have it? And your response at that time was, no, I don't think you can, it's a trait. 

[00:26:40] Angela Lee Duckworth: That is not, I never would have said that. I'm sorry, like, I just want to say that, like, I didn't, you know what I probably said? I don't know how, but I think that, like, everything about human nature is malleable.

But anyway, but I probably said, like, I don't know how. 

[00:26:53] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I'm paraphrasing, I, I apologize, but, but my, I was probably looking for a here's an answer and you didn't give me one, so I've coded that as, okay, she, there is, and you can't. Over the years, and I use some of the things that I've learned under you that we had in my thesis and also other stuff that you've done with, with the Wu plan, et cetera, we'll put some links under the episode that you can teach some of these elements of psychology to a degree, right?

Is that, is that fair to say? 

[00:27:21] Angela Lee Duckworth: I mean, you know, um, when I met Pete Carroll, like he also says that, like I said, that you can't teach grit, but I was like, I don't think I said that. I think I said, I don't know how, but regardless, um, what he wanted to say, and I think what you're saying, and then maybe what I'm hearing Lindsey saying also is like, a coach is so important because they are able to shape you, bring out things that you already have that you don't recognize and then help you make things in yourself that you didn't have before.

So, like, yeah, and the world expert on world experts just died. Actually, so, Lindsey, you've heard of deliberate practice, well, you know it, you did it, and you read about it, you know, you know all about it. That's our episode for everybody, Deliberate Practice, and everyone's like, wait, what? That also needs more branding, honestly, but I'm Anders Ericsson, who's a scientist who discovered how experts practice differently than others.

And, you know, he studied world class performers like Lindsey. Nobody has ever really studied world class coaches. Nobody has ever done a systematic kind of like, what makes a great, like, you know, maybe they're great psychologists, but also like just any kind of systematic scientific understanding. I find coaching to be very kind of like, when you hear how people get into it, it's like very kind of like idiosyncratic.

And I don't know if there's like training for coaches. Because there doesn't seem to be a lot of. So, I do think there are great coaches. I do think they bring out the best. I don't think we know enough about, like, great coaches. 

[00:28:39] Lindsey Vonn: A anywa Cynia Phil Jackson, that's my vote. Is he your favorite coach? I just think teen sports are so difficult because you're dealing with so many psyches.

You know, it's, everyone is different and you have to get them to work together and you know, you can have the most talented people in the world and they just don't work together and your team doesn't win. And I feel like, obviously you watch The Last Dance. That's one thing that I really pay attention to and I've I've really been intrigued by is how Phil got all of these people, like, especially Dennis, like, and he understood Dennis and was like, sure, yeah, you know, like, I understand that you got your, you need to do your stuff, like, you do that and then come back and we'll all work together and I've never heard of a coach doing something like that.

Think 

[00:29:24] Angela Lee Duckworth: about the Steve Kerr, because, like, Steve Kerr was a player, right? That's another one that's enchanting. 

[00:29:29] Lindsey Vonn: Smart. He's so smart. I had no idea how smart he was. He's a genius. Are you becoming a coach? Is that your goal? Like, you know, you said that. No, you're not going to do that. 

[00:29:38] Paddy Steinfort: I like how you were like for people who are watching the video.

[00:29:42] Lindsey Vonn: I'm intrigued by greatness. You know, like, like you both are like, I just want to know how he does it. What the process is, and how did he learn to get that way? I mean, I know he was talking about, you know, he is an American Indian. There's some sort of American Indian teachings that he does, and he's very like spiritual, and I would love to have a documentary just on Phil.

[00:30:05] Paddy Steinfort: I second that vote, for sure. One of the things that did, the practical elements psychologically that he brought to the players that they probably wouldn't have received in a normal program was training on being present. So he brought Yoga and mindfulness meditation in, as part of his, like he was a very spiritual guy, so both the Bulls and the Lakers when he went there.

And it was an element that obviously there's two parts to it. And I want to, I want to kind of pivot to explore this because it's part of being able to be tough is being flexible and being in the moment, right? In terms of today, I need this as opposed to, I'm just going to. Copy and paste what I'm supposed to do every day and obviously there's a benefit.

Firstly, we'll go to that second bit in a second. But firstly, in being present in big moments, you know, 83 82 or 83, depending on what source you read gold medals. In the world cup and also an Olympic and a world championship, like they are big moments to get ready for that run that there's a big moment and there's what sometimes I'll refer to as a sweaty palms moment where it's like, okay, we're here, I'm at the top of the run and there's no stopping this like it's, I can't go back.

It's, it's worse to go back than it needs to go forward. And I also know that there's huge stakes on the line. And being present is very important in that moment. And I can see you nodding. Was that something that was natural to you or did you have to develop that? Was there a coach who developed that?

Was there a practice you found that was like, okay, this helps me handle that really big shit? 

[00:31:31] Lindsey Vonn: I kind of figured it out on my own. I was in a lot of high, high stakes situation, like really high pressure situations as early as like 12 years old, 13 years old. And I would always get really, really nervous, and it was really my last, I think it was 13 or 14, it was my last year that I was, um, able to compete at this, like, the biggest international race for juniors, and my dad always said that if I won, I would most likely go on to be a World Cup champion, because probably 75 percent of the people that won that race did go on to win So, um, yeah.

World Cups, which is like it's a crazy stat 

[00:32:12] Paddy Steinfort: and you held you were 14 at this 

[00:32:14] Lindsey Vonn: point and I'm like if I want to win, I have to win this and so I'm standing there in the start of the second round. I'm in second place. I was just freaking out like I was totally freaking out. So nervous and I just I don't know.

I just kept saying, you know, I got on the starting gate and I tried to lower my breathing and I said, I can do this. I can do this. I can do this. I just said it over and over and over. And I just ski and I, I won. That was kind of, I think a big moment for me and kind of realizing that, about that self talk, you know, telling myself that I can.

And then I also had some other tricks that I figured out throughout my career. I used to write little notes on my skis. So when I was in the starting gate, I would look down and I would see, you know, state or word, or. And that would kind of focus my mind on the things that I needed to do in that moment.

And then I also, then when I got to the Olympics, realized that that's something totally different entirely. And um, I figured out that you really have to throw everything out the window and you have to find a way to be the best that you've ever been in your entire life in that one moment. And you have to be.

In that moment, right in the starting gate. So it's like very much a timing thing. You know, how do you time the rhythm of your warm up? How do you, you know, mentally get yourself psyched up? Because if you get psyched up too early, then you're actually tired when you're in the starting gate. Because the adrenaline It sucks so much energy out of you that you can be depleted entirely by the time you get to the starting gate.

So it took me quite a few years to actually, you know, figure out, which is why I didn't win until the 2010 Olympics. But I, I had a very methodical way of how I prepared and physically and mentally. Got myself in the state of being entirely present and like, you know, in the zone for those 10 seconds. Why I'm in the sorry, 

[00:34:10] Paddy Steinfort: I mean, that's a while.

I'm getting my goosebumps and I've got 1000 questions. We don't have time for them all. I'm going to give it to you, Angela, because I know we've talked at times. I'll mention this idea of like. Being clutch or being in the moment, you're like, yeah, but that's not what I study. I study long term perseverance, et cetera.

And to me, they're like inextricably linked in a way that to be able to persevere, I need to let go of the long term thing and just be here right now and do this job that's in front of me. Like, like Lindsey said, stay forward, be a great, like, I need to just do those tasks relevant things. And I'm not even sure if you were nervous.

But your TED talk, which is one of the most watched of all time, I imagine before the cameras were all there, was there moments of, I mean, I know you teach all the time, so you speak in front of people. Was that different for you, speaking in front of cameras, knowing that this is going to be on the internet for posterity?

[00:34:57] Angela Lee Duckworth: Yeah, I mean, look, the reason I said that I don't study clutch or like, you know, that moment, like, not all great achievers have these. This feature of their life or like, Oh, and then these next 10 seconds matter the most, right? Like, imagine you're a painter or something like it's so I want to study greatness and all its forms.

And a lot of people greatness includes those really clutch moments, military leaders, presidents, you know, Olympic skiers, but there are some domains of human greatness that just are not, they just don't have those clutch moments. And so that's, um, whatever. So that's, that, that's the UIK that I was on for me.

I mean, so I, I, The TED talk was, um, maybe different from the Olympics because like when you're doing the Olympics, like, you know, that these are the 10 seconds that count. Um, I was just like, I have to go do this thing called TED. And for some reason they won't let me, um, like just do my usual thing, which is just to speak off the cuff.

They wanted me to, I guess, because TED has a time requirement. So they were like, no, this kind of talk, you have to actually. You know, know everything that you're going to say like in them so that you don't go over. So I was like, Oh, that's weird. I think for me, like great teaching is like you're really in the moment.

And then when you're in the moment with your students, you're just like, you're just thinking in real time. And you're like, okay, then that that makes me think of this. So yeah, doing the TED talk was weird because it was like, no, it has to be exactly six minutes. So like. They didn't want me to think in the moment.

Anyway, I don't think it was the same because I wasn't thinking like, Oh, maybe this is going to be like a really important part of my life. I was more like, Oh, okay. I want to do a really good job for you. And then I'm going to go home. 

[00:36:28] Paddy Steinfort: Right. That's probably why you were, your hair, your hair looked great when you presented like the hair.

[00:36:33] Angela Lee Duckworth: Yeah. Yeah. No, that's yeah. I mean, there was a little bit, but not, not nearly. So, uh, I think, I think that idea of like being, uh, able to handle clutch moments, obviously has relevance to everyone, but just, it's, it's just at a level for somebody like Lindsey that I just, I think very few human beings actually have to be that, like, they're not confronted with those kinds of clutch moments.

Uh, some are. 

[00:36:56] Paddy Steinfort: Right. Well, so it's interesting. I agree with that 100%. There is a, an analogy though, or a parallel of when I'm about to have a conversation with my girlfriend that is potentially like going to be problematic for us, there's an element of 10 seconds that it's like, Oh shit, we're going to do this.

Okay, please go. And there's also, I'm getting up to do that Ted talk or the presentation at work, or I'm getting ready to go on stage as a musician, or I'm getting ready for the exam, like I'm getting ready to go out and do this trial that'll help me make the platoon, like whatever it might be. There are elements, not to the degree of an Olympic gold medal, and probably not to the degree, for many people, of a TED Talk, but internally, the response is similar, right?

Fair, fair. 

[00:37:35] Angela Lee Duckworth: And all those things that were mentioned, like using breath, timing, uh, and then being aware of your self talk, um, and then being strategic about your self talk, uh, and some of those other hacks that I wrote down, right? Like, Lindsey mentioned, I do think you're right, even if you're not, like, at the top of a mountain, about to, like, ski the downhill for the gold medal, like, they're also 

[00:37:55] Paddy Steinfort: They, they exist.

They're not, they're not the same, but they exist. And I think that's one of the great parts about being able to talk to people at the level of both of yourselves is even though I'm not chasing Olympic gold medal or a listener Sally isn't chasing being a MacArthur genius, both of us can learn and apply to our own situations.

And with that in mind, I know we're a little similar to the Ted talk. There's probably a time constraint. I want to finish off with this last question of what, what's your hope in terms of everything we've discussed here, Angela, clearly your life's work. Lindsey, your life's work in action, and now you're talking about coaching and like, we're on here.

We're not coaching. She said she didn't want to be a coach. But passing on messages, let's, let's say that. And so those two areas, if you're trying to pass this on, help people, what's the biggest hope for you in this area in terms of helping people develop grit, develop toughness, uh, handle the shit that life inevitably throws at?

[00:38:48] Angela Lee Duckworth: I think people are happiest when they are pursuing goals. Not when they have just accomplished them. So like, that's why it's actually a happier place to be getting up every day. I'm working on this challenge rather than having that in the rearview mirror. That's why I think actually it is such a struggle when you retire or you transition careers or you come back from deployment because without that goal, like that's You know, the founding father said the pursuit of happiness, but really it's the happiness of pursuit.

People are happiest when they are making progress on goals. And maybe that's my recommendation that whoever you are, wherever you are, whatever titles you have, that unless you have a goal that you are pursuing, then you are probably, in my view, probably not going to be as happy as you could be. 

[00:39:32] Paddy Steinfort: Speaking of quartables.

Wow. 

[00:39:33] Lindsey Vonn: I think that's actually probably one of the best pieces of advice that I learned for myself. And then. I think this is perfect to give on this podcast because, yeah, it's about finding new challenges, you know, finding new goals every day, and sometimes it's hard to figure that out. Um, sometimes, you know, we, we transition, we don't really know what's, what we need to work on, what, what's coming next, and it's hard to find that motivation and kind of the next light at the end of the tunnel.

But. There's always something you just have to find it. You have to find out, you know, what pushes you and what challenges you. And, um, it may not always be the same thing, but there's always going to be something. 

[00:40:13] Paddy Steinfort: Speaking of quotables, if there's always something, you just have to find it. That's a perfect way to end this.

Uh, Lindsey, thank you for your time. Angela, thank you for your time. This has been my favorite episode so far. It may maintain that gold medal standard for forever. Who knows? But thanks very much for your time. Appreciate you. For those who want to follow up, uh, Angela, you have your own podcast, uh, which I promised that I would get a plug in because you don't, you know, great.

[00:40:38] Angela Lee Duckworth: Not only like plugging things, but yeah, I have a podcast called No Stupid Questions with Stephen Dubner of Freakonomics. 

[00:40:43] Paddy Steinfort: Great. So you can find that in all the podcast channels. Uh, and Lindsey, is there anything that you're wanting to, if listeners want to follow you, how do they do? I 

[00:40:52] Lindsey Vonn: have a little series on my YouTube.

I'm called Career Day and I have some of my students are from my scholarship winners from my foundation and they talk with some of their idols like Caroline Wozniacki and just different athletes that they look up to and it's on YouTube, LVTV. 

[00:41:13] Paddy Steinfort: Perfect. Look it up. I'm going straight to that because that sounds super interesting.

Thank you both again for your time. Really appreciate it.