How Elite Teams Build "Unbreakable" Cultures Under Extreme Pressure | West Point's Secret Formula

Some teams crumble under pressure. Others become unstoppable. What makes the difference?

I sat down with Mike Erwin, a U.S. Army combat veteran and assistant professor of leadership at West Point, and Daniel Coyle, the New York Times bestselling author of The Culture Code and The Talent Code, to explore what truly makes elite teams tick.

Mike has led soldiers through combat deployments, founded multiple leadership-driven nonprofits, and now shares his wisdom with the next generation of military officers.

Daniel has spent years embedded with world-class organizations—from Navy SEALs to professional sports teams—studying the science of culture, trust, and mental toughness.

Together, they reveal the hidden forces behind elite teams, the unspoken truths about leadership, and why true resilience is built—not born.

 

Books Mentioned:
- The Culture Code by Daniel Coyle: https://a.co/d/3pV1Oko 

- The Culture Playbook by Daniel Coyle: https://a.co/d/ajcVW5G 

- Lead Yourself First by Raymond Kethledge and Mike Erwin: https://a.co/d/1Kytz0y 

- Skin in the Game by Nassim Nicholas Taleb: https://a.co/d/fp1PhK4 

- The Captain Class by Sam Walker: https://a.co/d/9zUn9YZ 

- Any Given Team by Ray McLean: https://a.co/d/6StbnxU 

 

Connect with Mike:

📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/erwinrwb 

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-erwin-9ba1804/ 

🌐 Website: https://www.mikeerwin.net 

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/erwinrwb 

 

Connect with Daniel:

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-coyle-32830310/ 

🌐 Website: https://danielcoyle.com 

Follow me for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: @paddysgram
💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort
✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

 

Transcript:

[00:00:00]Daniel Coyle: Ideas in books don't change people. People change people.

Mike Erwin: If you're a parent and you want your kid to be happy in life, the most important thing that they do is have good relationships. 

[00:00:09] Daniel Coyle: How is your team set up to sort of give to each other and be vulnerable and then share with each other and share that skin in the game?

[00:00:16] Mike Erwin: It's about the consistency for 47 months that you're being pushed to be your very best. 

[00:00:21] Daniel Coyle: It looks like magic when you see someone do something incredible, but what's underneath?

[00:00:34] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the toughness podcast. I'm your host, Paddy Steinforth. We have a fascinating discussion ahead of us in this episode with two of the world's leading experts on tough cultures and what makes elite teams work, especially teams that operate under incredible stress. Our first guest is an author whose work I stumbled upon while I was trying to be a DCIP coach, uh, in my early days.

As a coach, Dan Coyle is the author, New York Times bestselling author of The Talent Code, was the first book that I came across talking about athlete development. But then he's stepped up his game with his next one, which was The Culture Code. And it's really a fascinating read. Dan, welcome to the show.

Hey, good to be with you, Paddy. 

[00:01:14] Daniel Coyle: Thanks for having me. 

[00:01:16] Paddy Steinfort: Great to have you here. Dan also does some special advisor work for the Cleveland Indians and speaks to a number. I mean, we'll talk about it more as the episode goes on. But speaks as an advisor and just a curious mind to a lot of people in high level teams, high performing teams in a bunch of different areas.

Including professional criminals. We'll circle back to that, uh, later in the show. And our second guest is Mike Erwin. Mike is still an active member of the U. S. Army Reserves. Is that correct, Mike? Yeah, that's correct. Yeah. So still serving, but, uh, has been through the U. S. Army, a Lieutenant Colonel, and also now runs a number of, uh, on a number of fronts, a few different operations that focus on developing positive relationships, positive teams.

And, uh, character and development most specifically Mike is assistant professor of leadership at West Point Military Academy, Mike Irwin, welcome to the show. 

[00:02:09] Mike Erwin: Great to be here. Thanks so much. 

[00:02:11] Paddy Steinfort: And, uh, I'm going to start as I normally do with these is, is recounting the first time that I stumbled either over someone's work or individually in person.

And Dan for, for my running into you and your work kind of happened about the same time. I was fascinated with developing athletes. I was trying to do it myself. And then we happened to cross paths, uh, I think you were coming in as a special visitor to the Philadelphia Eagles at a time that I was, uh, that I was hanging around there doing a bit of work.

Tell me how you end up becoming the guy as an author and a guy who writes books and does a bit of research. And then you, over a bunch of years, obviously it doesn't happen overnight, but you moved to being a guy that the Philadelphia Eagles and the Cleveland Indians and a bunch of other groups bring in to say, how do we make a better culture?

Like how did that journey start for you? 

[00:02:58] Daniel Coyle: Yeah, it's funny. I guess it started, uh, by being in the middle of three brothers and having to compete with them a lot. We were Irish triplets, uh, all of us about less than a year apart. And so when you're competing for, uh, well, in our case, sort of food, love, uh, space, um, and other essentials, you end up thinking about the edge that you can get.

I studied pre med in college, uh, majored in English as well, and kind of made, almost went to medical school, made this turn into journalism. So I brought kind of their scientific curiosity. About x raying performance. Like, what is that made of? It looks like magic when you see someone do something incredible, but what's underneath, it's not really magic, right?

There's something there. What is that thing? And that. That question led me into, um, you know, journalism is a license to be curious. And so you can call up, it's the cool thing is you can call up people like you and say, Hey, you seem really good at what you do. Tell me more about that. And then you can go visit them and you can watch them and you can capture what happens on paper.

And, and that's sort of what I ended up doing this weird career where. I would sort of travel around the world looking for great performers and then going with them and trying to see what they do and then connect the dots scientifically to what's really going on. 

[00:04:13] Paddy Steinfort: That connecting of the dots was fascinating for me because it, it, the talent code itself was really.

One of the first, uh, I would call them like pop psychology books, where it was like, there was things in there that, uh, that led me into a deep dive into psychology and Mike and I have studied the same thing at different universities, but this was one of the books that hooked me and dragged me into the deep end.

And that was about individual psychology and what happens to help an individual becoming an extraordinary performer. But then you pivoted from that, or maybe leveled up from that, if you will, from. What makes an individual good to what makes a group and, and I'm only going to make the assumption that it happened because you were in there advising teams, like, how do you make this guy good?

And you spotted some other things that you were like, yeah, but there's other things going on here that are above and beyond individual talent. Is that, is that kind of how that evolved? 

[00:05:04] Daniel Coyle: Yeah, that is, that is, you go from one mystery to the next and when you're in certain rooms and we've all felt it, right?

You walk into a school and it feels different in that school, or you walk into a classroom. And it feels, feels different in there. Like everybody's on point, everybody's switched on, everybody's learning more than in the classroom down the hall or a locker room, you feel it there, you know, winning locker rooms feel different.

What's going on, what is happening there? So that mystery is what led me to start to investigate what, what's happening in these places that. Are incredibly tough. If we want to put it in the frame of this conversation, incredibly tough, incredibly resilient, incredibly connected, where does that behavior come from again?

It feels like magic, but it's not magic. There's, there's a thing there. And so investigating that thing became, uh, what, what I got into. 

[00:05:50] Paddy Steinfort: You're right. I think everyone listening and definitely everyone sitting on this screen or on this call has felt that you've been in a special place or a special team or somewhere is like, this is different.

Right. And Mike, you've been in one that is perennially recognized as different. It's actually held up as different. West Point Military Academy is the academy for U. S. Army graduates to go to and become leaders. Like it's literally the school. To be a leader of the best army in the world, the biggest army in the world.

What was it that drew you to that? Did you want to be a leader or it was like, you kind of just ended up. 

[00:06:24] Mike Erwin: Yeah. So it brings me back to over 20 years and I'm getting old. Um, but when I was thinking about actually played baseball, uh, I was looking at a bunch of different schools and ended up going to West point.

Um, so part of the draw was baseball, but the biggest part was, yeah, I did really fall in love with the concept of a four year process to grow into a leader. They talk about being the 47 months journey and, um. You know, it's amazing how much effort and energy they pour into each and every cadet. Each class starts with about 1, 200 and graduates about 1, 000.

So there's not a, you know, a very high attrition rate and the amount of mentorship, the amount of systems and rigor that's been put in to develop you intellectually. Right there, you take everything from philosophy and economics, you know, to chemistry and calculus. Uh, so they make you be, you know, sort of that rain, you know, range, right?

They make you have a wide range of different backgrounds. And then, of course, the military training, the physical training, the social skills. Like, how do you lead people? How do you feed off of What's going on in a situation. And so the biggest thing that I came out of that journey with and then, uh, yeah, I graduated 2002 and then I went back and I taught there on active duty from 2011 to 14 and I'm now still in the reserves and I go back there every summer.

I teach a course there to army football players, um, who, you know, have to make up the course. The biggest thing I've learned is that the development of leaders right in building like that, you know, that organizational culture, it's a journey, right? It's not like, uh, And this kind of goes back to one of my mentors, Jim Collins.

He talks about, you know, about all the time, about the 20 mile march and the consistency that's needed. And it's not about the silver bullet or that one big thing that breaks through. It's about the consistent energy and effort that's being poured into individuals in the case of West Point to prepare you to lead, or in the case of building, you know, as an institution 220 plus years, uh, or about 220 years now, right, it's about the consistency, uh, for 47 months that, that you're being pushed to be your very best.

[00:08:20] Paddy Steinfort: That's a great way of putting it. You put out a few numbers there that I want to circle back on like immediately before I forget them. 47 months, which when you think about it, given the, uh, the different time spans that we all spend in different places, like that's a, that's a fairly long time for a lot of people to say, I'm going to do this one thing, right?

First and foremost. But secondly, you said that they start with 1200 odd thousand 200. And then they end graduating a thousand. So there's 200 attrition. You say it's not much, it's still attrition. And I studied on Angela Duckworth, who's one of her most famous, uh, it's a research that launched the, the grit movement was on West Point Military Academy in their beast barracks.

Right. And, and the fact that that's one of the things that weeds out, you said that it's actually a long process and it's not this one thing. But isn't Beast Barracks, like, notorious for being the one thing that'll, like, if you can't do that, you're not going to make it? 

[00:09:16] Mike Erwin: Yeah, and I think if you look at the attrition, um, you know, there's definitely more in that six weeks.

But yeah, there's definitely some, you know, more that happens. The slope of the line is deeper there, but, um, but it is also, like, The academics over the course of that first two years and just the grind of, you know, getting about five and a half hours of sleep a night, night after night after night, you know, with all the practice.

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, time out time. So that happens for 47 months while they're sleeping. Pretty much. I mean, five, five minute, depending on who you are between five and a half and six and a half. It's rare to find a cadet that gets more than six and a half and you can do it. And there's all this research, right, that talks about how important sleep is, and we know that, but there's also, uh, a lot of things that have to get done in a given day at West Point across all the domains.

And you're going to have to choose to neglect some of them if you're going to prioritize six and a half hours of sleep. So. 

[00:10:04] Paddy Steinfort: Wow. Wow. And you know, I'm, I'm raising my eyebrows and whistling in the background, like that's a big thing, but some of our listeners who are in the army themselves, who are soldiers, operators, leaders, it's probably not as much of a surprise to them, right?

This is, this is normal life for some people. And not even in the military. If you, uh, you happen to be a new parent, five hours of sleep is a luxury. Let's, uh, continue on with the West Point or Mike, let's actually just talk about your time as active duty. How much credit, how much weight did you put on?

The support of other people, when you started as a leader and you were at West Point, how much weight did you put on the culture as a facet of leadership development versus like, I'm, this is just a good leader regardless of what room they're in. 

[00:10:49] Mike Erwin: Yeah, I mean, I think about my time at West Point and then, you know, going on out into the army.

Um, I'd say at first the relationships that were the most important to me to be resilient and to be able to, to push through where my personal relationships with family and friends. Um, but over time, those start to be supplanted by the relationships within the organization where you're spending all of your time.

And, you know, for me, I started to see quite a bit of relationships at West point and then out into the army grow really strong and they became critical. And especially on a deployment, you know, when you're going through, you know, something challenging, like, uh, you know, a six month or a 12 month deployment, I did a 12 month, an eight month and a six month, um, so I did about, you know, 26, 27 months deployed.

I'm between oh four and oh nine in various units, you have to, in theory, I think to really go through, you have to have both of those relationships, but going back to your question specifically about the culture of the organization, you know, this is why I'm so fascinated by, you know, Dan's work, you know, it first started, you know, with the talent code, spent a lot of time thinking about that, you know, with my co founder of one of positivity project.

He was an all American lacrosse player at West Point. I His brother was a lacrosse player and a national champion at Johns Hopkins University. You know, fell in love with the book. Um, but as we dug into, you know, and started to really think about the relevancy of like all the research within the culture code, as I looked with that lens, looking back at the military organizations that I was a part of, it really helped me to better understand.

You know, the role of the relationships, you know, the sets of living relationships within the organization. And I frankly had, you know, some organizations where the culture was incredible. It was amazing. Uh, and then there were other ones when it wasn't. Same unit, right? And very often, you know, just different leaders.

And the leaders could, in some regard, You know, be able to shape or to pivot the organizational culture within a relatively short period of time when you're in combat and you're deployed. It was pretty significant, but yeah, like the bottom line is the leaders that prioritize the relationships and that really prioritize, like.

Like you can't let the person to your left and your right down. That was what was super powerful and built up that strong organizational culture. Interesting. 

[00:12:57] Paddy Steinfort: Interesting. And you mentioned something there of you can't let the person to your left and your right down, which a few other guests and not even military guests have mentioned as part of like being tough.

On the front lines, whether it's in a surgical team, whether it's in a sports team in the military, I'm going to ask, and I'm going to catch us here before we go any further, because there are a couple of words to keep bouncing around when I normally ask guests to define from their experience. The other one isn't as regular, but it's very relevant to this conversation.

I'm going to ask each of you in turn to say, what does toughness mean to you based on your experience in terms of what you've observed? And also what you've lived and also what does culture mean? Cause it's such a catch word. It's like, it's trendy. Hey, we've got a great culture that I've actually had a coach one time that I coached alongside who got a little frustrated with this word that kept being thrown around because he came from a culture that was like dominant, they'd won multiple championships within the league, he shifted to this other team that we were working on, that we were trying to build into that.

And he was like, culture, it's not a thing. Like it's just that other group was good. We all did everything that we needed to do. And if someone didn't, they'd get slapped around the ears. Like it's not this magical thing. You can't just drink a can of culture and then everything's good. And so for those listeners or people who are like, I don't really know what you're talking about when you say that word, let's start there.

We'll go to you, Dan. Cause you wrote about it first. What culture in your eyes, given that you've spent so much time looking at it. Well, what the hell 

[00:14:27] Daniel Coyle: is it? Yeah. It's a set of relationships working toward a goal. That's what it is. And you got a picture, I mean, and you're exactly right that that word gets thrown around way too much.

It gets thrown around just like, oh, it's this magic dust that certain people have and certain people don't. That's not true. Picture a school of fish moving through a coral reef. Or picture a flock of birds in the sky moving through a forest, right, together. They're connected. They're sharing information, they're watching each other, and they're navigating obstacles in search of a goal.

Culture is functionality, right? Culture is performance. Culture is a set of connected people who can do shit together. That's what culture is. And at the end of the day, it's not about how they feel. It's not that it's warm and fuzzy. It's functional. And when you talk to people in great culture, that's one of the great mistakes.

The people make when they think about culture, they think, Oh, you know, Pixar's gradient culture, San Antonio Springs, great cultures are where people are happy all the time and where everybody agrees with everybody all the time and where you kind of exist on this higher plane where everything's great.

And that's actually not true. And if you think about your own experience, everybody's been a part of a great culture and maybe it was a team, maybe it was a class, maybe it's family. And what you remember is that feeling of connection, that feeling of energy. That feeling of selflessness, that feeling of being part of something bigger than you, that's that feeling of being in the flock, moving force together.

And it's not warm and fuzzy. It's not, it's not like, it can feel warm and fuzzy at times. Ultimately, when you talk to great operators, especially in the military, a lot of people, for instance, will, will leave the SEAL teams and then they'll come back because they can't get that feeling other places, or they'll leave a sports team or they'll leave their trading desk on wall street, and then they'll come back.

Because that's what culture is, right? 

[00:16:14] Paddy Steinfort: A 

[00:16:14] Daniel Coyle: set of relationships moving toward a goal. 

[00:16:17] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, and it's, it's funny that you mention that happens in the military. People leave sports teams, they leave great company. Similar effects of, you have that feeling afterwards almost because it's the It's almost like, all right, we did that work.

It was tough. And now I feel good about it as opposed to feeling good in the moment. I will often say when I'm, might be sitting one on one with a coach or a player, the game, like they want to talk about, I want to feel better. I want to feel more confident, you know, this relationship doesn't feel right.

And the very throwaway, but true line is the game doesn't give a shit how you feel, but the game's going to go on. The opponent's going to punch her in the face. These things are going to happen and whether you want them to or not is irrelevant. Whether it feels good or not is irrelevant. It's whether you respond to them and like you said, navigate through that coral leaf or through a sky, coral reef, or through a sky.

That's the thing that makes it magic. Mike, over to you. Oh, sorry, 

[00:17:07] Daniel Coyle: go ahead, Dan. I will say, just to pop back for a sec, I've heard people also describe culture as solving hard problems with people you admire. Like that's another way to describe what you're talking about. You're with people you admire and you're solving hard problems together.

And that's a feeling you don't get very often in life. You know, it's, it's, it's a great feeling. 

[00:17:24] Paddy Steinfort: For sure. For sure. Mike, over to you. See if you can beat that very succinct definition. 

[00:17:29] Mike Erwin: So I'm, I'm, I'm going to bore you because I'm going to say I'm not, when it comes to culture, I'm a student of Dan Coyle. So, you know, I, you know, the, uh, the sets of living relationships working together towards a common goal or purpose, it resonated deeply with me that focus on the set.

Of relationships? What do you mean by that? Set of relationships? Yeah. I mean, so it's easy, like if you think about it's, you know, even sometimes just a one relationship is difficult to manage, right? But if you think about like an organization, think about all the various sets of, of relationships that go on.

With your peers, with people that, you know, that lead you with people that you're leading, right? There's, it's this ecosystem. And, and the fact is that other word, like living to hone in on that, like the living relationships, like they're evolving, but if you accept that definition, uh, of, you know, organizational culture, um, think about the impact that a, an all remote workforce, you know, for lots of places has on, like, how are people finding ways to connect it in a meaningful way to build those relationships, to grow stronger together?

Um, it's really hard. Now, you know, team red, white and blue, you know, this is the, uh, the first nonprofit I started 10 years ago, I'm the executive director and we've got a staff of 24, um, you know, serve 230, 000 members across the country. And, you know, we've been remote and distributed and virtual in terms of our staff for like six years now.

So not a big deal, but I, I done a lot of work just talking to people, friends who are, you know, leaders of business units and. And they're just still trying to get their feet underneath them because they they're so used to meeting with people and doing almost everything and making all their big decisions in person.

Now they're having to make these big, huge decisions with people that they got relationships with, but they haven't seen in person and, you know, given a handshake for four months. Right. And so it's really fundamentally challenging organizational culture right now, because, like, how are you maintaining those relationships?

Because it looks so different for most organizations today than it did just four months ago. 

[00:19:19] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, it's like you mentioned your, your team at red, white and blue. There will, we will, I promise as we go through this entire episode, mention all of the nonprofits you've started. You're an incredible individual on that front.

That's a small group of 20 people. It just so happens that earlier this week I was on the call with a leader at not so small group of people from a check firm. Google, I'll, I'll mention their names just so everyone can get an idea of the size of this group and talking about, wow, they've got a great culture.

You know, it's one of the flags on the Hill that everyone says, Oh, it's a great culture, the Googliness and all this sort of business. But they are dealing with exactly the same thing that you just mentioned there in terms of everyone's remote now. And it shouldn't be as much of an issue for a tech group, but it still is because there are conversations that happen at the water cooler, or there's a little bitch session that happens in an office and you happen to walk past and you're like, Oh, you're talking about Smith.

Let me jump in on this. And these are the things that happen in, in, like you say, sets of relationships that now don't happen because I'm not walking past someone and I don't overhear something and I don't see someone sitting there staring at the wall or looking like they're about to jump out the window.

And there are things that happen with human relationships that we're now missing and we're, we're looking at, um, you know, I think everyone who is in that situation is looking at how do we either replicate. Or pivot so that we can build those same signals and sets of relationships in ways that we're not used to doing in ways that we used to be able to rely on osmosis for want of a better term.

And so that instead of asking the normal question of what does toughness mean to you, uh, that I would normally throw out on this show, I'm going to ask. On the same line of culture and of teams, think about in a platoon, Mike, that you might've been in or in a squadron. What's a tough team look like?

What's a tough culture? What does toughness mean when it comes to culture? So we've defined culture is a set of living relationships, moving together toward a goal. And there are a bunch of things that can stop those relationships from. Moving together toward a goal, a heap of opposition, a heap of circumstances, even the individuals within the group, right?

Is it that separates a culture that might fall apart or not move towards the goal or the relationships fray versus. A tough culture that that is resilient. 

[00:21:30] Mike Erwin: Yeah. I mean, I think I would try to be as succinct as possible. I'd say there's something in there, some sort of combination between accountability, uh, empathy, and you know, just the ability to like, just be there for each other.

Right. Like in the face of the adversity, but to me, like, I mean, I really sum up toughness in such the same way as saying resilience, right? Like the ability to bounce back from adversity, the ability to push through challenges is how I summarize it, but it's definitely some sort of combination of like holding these people accountable.

You still got to get stuff done. Right. But also being empathetic, knowing that different people are facing different challenges in different ways, you know, with a high degree of variance in the world today. 

[00:22:08] Paddy Steinfort: So I'm going to, I'm going to grab two of the things you said there to make it a little clearer of a question you said.

Resilience and bounce back from adversity. So let's say some of the relationships afraid this happens in cultures. This happens in our life and our families. There's one thing that can happen. And another thing is push through adversity. So you're still able to advance towards that goal that these relationships are working together in with part of this being a culture, a set of relationships moving towards common goal.

Dan, to you, what are the things that in your observations and in what you've heard from some of the fascinating people you've consulted with to learn about this stuff? What are the things that repair frayed relationships or stop them from fraying in the first place as part of these sets of human relationships and also allow groups to continue to push through to goals when maybe there's adversity and they haven't gone in the right direction?

[00:22:55] Daniel Coyle: Well, the thing, you know, first of all, is, is that there is a paradox there in what you just described. And there's a tension, right? On the one hand, you're connecting empathy, right? On the other hand, you are sort of saying you're challenging accountability. Like I need to, I'm going to hold you to what we talked about.

We're going to push. So I think great groups is a tendency in leadership to want to be one of the other to be the connective love coach or to be the challenge tough guy coach to be the rugged individualist coach. And I think great, truly great, truly tough teams embrace both. They embrace the tension that you actually have to toggle between both of those things.

And the person I, who I encountered who did it the best was Greg Popovich or the San Antonio Spurs at times, the toughest mofo you've ever met. He will go Google, uh, Greg Popovich yelling at Danny green. It's got like 4 million views because it's, he's so over the top being tough with this guy. Then.

Consider what Popovich does. He spends six figures on, on getting on food every year, getting his team together to connect, not talk just about basketball, but to talk about life. Before an NBA final, he spent a locker room session talking about. Australia's national holiday, Eddie Mabo Day, and I had a player stand up and talk about that, talk about empathy, talk about the whole person, talk about connection, and in the, in the culture code, I tell a story about, uh, right after they lost the most painful loss maybe ever in the National Black NBA Finals, um, him, the way he pulled the team together for a dinner, which, uh, Where he created an atmosphere that was so warm and so kind of loving and so full of brotherhood and camaraderie that they were able to respond to that loss as a team.

So, their GM calls it the best active leadership he's ever seen in sports. What he did, not on the court, but at this dinner. So, he embraces this idea that it's not one or the other, it's both. It's really both. Yeah, I really think that is one that we, we all struggle with because our instinct is to kind of gravitate more toward the toughness accountability thing and less toward the empathy 

[00:24:59] Paddy Steinfort: or there are some who gravitate towards the empathy and connection piece.

And like you said, that onto the toughness bit or the. What they might say is tough is being hard on someone that one of the cool, uh, definitions of just individual toughness that came out from one of the previous episodes was a former Navy SEAL, uh, who mentioned that he saw toughness as being psychological flexibility.

And it is something that, that in the, within the literature and definitely within my work, it's much more about, it's not just about gritting your teeth and hanging on. Sometimes it's about being able to let something go. Sometimes it's about being able to take a different point of view. And it's this flexibility that allows you to handle whatever situation happens to maintain those two things that you really need good connections and continued pursuit of that goal without giving up the example you gave of pop.

And that dinner after game six, I think he said it was, uh, again, you can probably find stuff about that online, but a fascinating example of an exercise that you would do psychologically, Mike, you might've come across this in your studies, but the concept of developing psychological flexibility by looking at the permanent self versus things that come and go.

Game six happened. It was bad. Most teams would curl up in a ball or go off in their, in their separate ways and be like, we'll look at wounds tonight. We'll come back to practice tomorrow. This action by a pop. Was to bring the group together. They already had it planned. They were going to have a dinner to celebrate.

It didn't happen. They still had the dinner because it was like, you guys are humans who are going to rega regardless of whether we, whether we win or lose, you're still going to be you and I'm still going to love you and we're still going to connect regardless because we've still got a job to do and there are, you mentioned some of your, your work there with team red, white and blue, Mike, around the continuity of identity for soldiers in your case who finished their career.

And need to then discover that they're actually still a human without being in the arm and I talk about my, some of the athlete, my own personal experience of being a former athlete, some of the athletes I work with who finished their career and there's a, there's an identity crisis of, well, if I'm not a football player or a basketball player or an Olympian, then what the hell am I?

And it's another example at the individual level. Of psychological flexibility. Tell me your experience there, Mike. Both personally, because you had to live it, but also working within that foundation and dealing with guys and girls who are facing that themselves. Does my, me trying out the term psychological flexibility, 

[00:27:27] Mike Erwin: yeah.

Yeah, it does. I like that a lot. You know, um, when, when I look at my own experience, you know, after, um, I was basically in the army for seven years, three deployments. And I went to grad school at the University of Michigan. I was in, you know, the personality of psychology PhD program, but I was still in the army.

I was a captain. And so I still went through that major transition myself. Um, from 2009 to 2011. And I look back at that and I realized like, geez, like, wow, this is tough. I still had healthcare. I still had my job and a salary and all that. I was like, man, I can't imagine going through this and having all those things gone now, right?

Like so many soldiers or servicemen and women do, you know, I think that. It gave me a deep sense of appreciation for just how much of my identity was hung on combat veteran, someone who is going out to the military or going on to graduate school. And I, and I really had to grapple that, you know, up close, uh, grapple with that.

But yeah, I think that to me, I've just seen it a lot more since then, you know, team RBB is 10 years old. A lot of what we did is we helped veterans as they were taking off the uniform to stay healthy, but also to find a new identity beyond just, you know, soldier, airman, Marine. Um, and so. I've seen it really up close now with a lot of my friends who, you know, are special forces leaders over here at Fort Bragg.

Um, I've also friends with, you know, and, and come to know people like Apollo Ohno and Kerry Walsh and other people, Tim Hasselbeck and Trent Dilfer. And a lot of people who have made that transition from like this high level, be it the Olympics or be it sport or, you know, be it whatever it is. And then they've moved on, you know, to, to other things.

And so the idea of, of framing toughness is psychological flexibility, I think really resonates because. It's hard to do. Uh, it is really challenging to be able to do. And I think so much of it is because we get wrapped up in, you know, what everyone else sees us at, right? Um, versus what we know we're bigger than just the game or whatever it is that we did.

Think about like you're an athlete. You retired 40. He lived 80 40 years post. athlete journey, you know, where you can go redefine yourself in a whole bunch of different ways. You know, which I think is one of the reasons, you know, the loss of Kobe was, you know, it's something that really, you know, hurt people so bad because he was like a guy who was like going through that transformation post athlete.

So anyways, I could talk forever on the topic, but yeah, I mean, definitely that, that definition resonates. 

[00:29:40] Paddy Steinfort: I'm glad it resonates because it's, uh, it's something I use often with people who are dealing with it. And when it rings true for someone who's been through it, that's usually a good sign. You go flipping back to Craig Popovich as any, as a perfect example of, well, not perfect.

No one's perfect. As a great example of someone who was flexible, who was able to go. From being fire to ice and then back again, or in between if he needed to, Dan, in your observations of other groups, is it always necessary that there's an individual who's a talisman or a figurehead carries that characteristic with them?

[00:30:13] Daniel Coyle: I don't think so. I think it's more about creating norms in the groups where each person has a role that they play and that everybody understands what those norms are. The leader has a lot to do with it. I'd say the biggest moment in any group's formation is when a leader demonstrates fallibility. For those 

[00:30:29] Paddy Steinfort: who don't speak English, what does fallibility mean 

[00:30:32] Daniel Coyle: that they can screw up that they're human, that they, that they don't get it right all the time and that they need help, that they actually rely on the group to bring help, that not just they need it or they're dumb or they need it, but they, but the, the group is working together to figure out what's going on, that they're not going to look to the one person for the answer.

Um, there's a, a Navy SEAL named Dave Cooper, who I came to meet. And Dave was the. The command master chief of, uh, the Navy SEAL team six group that got bin Laden. And then the way he put it was, um, that the four most important words a leader can say are, I screwed that up. And, and I think that concept really surprised me when he said it, because I was always thinking, well, no, leaders are very confident and they project confidence.

And if they need to be absolutely bulletproof when they present to their group, and they've really flipped that for me. And the reason that that's so important is that it gives people permission to tell each other what's really going on. Leaders often get insulated from the truth and by demonstrating fallibility by saying, look, I need you to tell me if you notice something, I need you to fix me when I make a wrong mistake.

And it gives this new model for leadership that I've heard. I'm sure you're familiar with Preston Klein and Coleman Ruiz's work at their Mission Critical Teams Institute. They put it this way. Normally we think of leadership as like the tip of the spear. And they said, well, The leader is not just like the tip.

It's a group is actually more like a rolling spike ball at different moments. Different people are stepping up to say, here's what's happening. Let's go this way. And then somebody else steps up and say, here's what's happening. Let's go this way. So they're sharing that those roles and they have a norm where that's, that's accepted, but they hold each other accountable to do it like, no, no, no.

Tell me what's happening. Let's do better. Um, make me accountable. Let's be accountable to each other. And, and that's, that's where you get that real group psychological flexibility from a clear that because man, the world moves fast. Like the idea that one person should have it all in their head and tell everybody what to do is kind of crazy.

That's a bad model. That's a bad model for making good decisions. The idea that we have this group brain that is. Constantly looking around and tuned into each other and sharing information so that the group can make the right decision. It seems like a better model for more toughness, more flexibility, and more performance.

[00:32:48] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. I mean, you, you've mentioned two characteristics there. One of the team of being flexible and we spoke about that on an individual level, but you also mentioned specifically for a leader, one of the biggest things for them is to be. Is to have fallibility or some people might call that vulnerability or some people might just be keeping it real.

Like whatever the term is, they can put it out there and say, I, I screwed that up. And those four words is a key, a mental and emotional trait of, of top leaders of good cultures or top proponents of good cultures. I mean, I'm going to flip to you, Mike. Is there anything that you look at as you watch people graduate, grow and evolve through West Point, both in your own experience and also you observe people doing it nowadays?

What is the, is there one key? Trait that you look at and you're like, that's what actually makes someone really good in this environment other than anything. You can just be like, no, those two things are pretty good. We'll run with that. 

[00:33:38] Mike Erwin: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I mean, I think that because of, you know, the dentist talked about how fast the world moves and how fast things change.

You know, I think it's really kind of tough to like narrow it down. And I know obviously some of the research that, you know, Angela did really kind of looked at, you know, grit, right, you know, passion and perseverance and the role that, you know, those things play, uh, certainly by that, but I think that, you know, for somehow it's, it's the combination, you know, of those character attributes, like the ones that encompass grit.

But I think that. I keep coming back to this word, resilience. And I think about the world today and the challenges we face and they're on multiple, multiple layers. Um, and I just think about how important it is to be able to, you know, not to let the adversity and the setbacks and all the problems of the world to one, to affect you too much.

Right. Um, cause you have to, you have to maintain hope and optimism to move forward in the face of adversity. Um, but not just that, but I think like. Just so much change happening right now in the future. I mean, think about like, you know, we, we start with this so much as humans to think about the future, like self driving cars and think about like all the evolution of the economy and all that, if you're not agile or adaptable or flexible and resilient in some sort of way, I mean, there's so much change on the horizon that is gonna be really difficult, I think, to thrive, you know, in, in the world of the future, if you are not able to be.

Uh, flexible and agile enough to be able to adapt to how things are going. If you haven't been able to adapt in these four months, personally, your personal relationships and your professional relationships, like, like you're, you're in a tough spot right now. It's tough. 

[00:35:11] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. I'm going to grab a few of the threads there and pull them together with this question that I've been dying to ask ever since I read about.

The, uh, the pink panthers in your book, Dan, the, um, and I'll explain to, to listeners. In fact, I'll, I'll leave it to you to explain what that means, but we've mentioned being flexible. We've mentioned being vulnerable. We've also mentioned the value of human connection and sets of relationships to deal with things that go astray.

And you also mentioned the work of the group who does work on mission critical teams, which is really relevant to the elite athletes that we work with to. Tech firms that are making billion dollar decisions to heart surgeons to military operators, obviously, like if something happens wrong here, we're all screwed.

And this group that you poured out, that you brought to light in your book, Pink Panthers, which is a professional criminal organization, as is the easiest way I'm going to describe it. Is a great example of, yeah, if someone in that group screws up, they are all literally screwed. They're all going to jail.

They're all dying, right? It's not a, they are a mission critical team in a very, very different sense, but they are, and I'm really curious whether those things that we've said, whether it's the flexibility, the vulnerability or the connection, like did they. Apply just as clearly to that group as I did to other groups in your experience.

Well, firstly, did you sit with him? Did you put dollar closet on and go into a bank? 

[00:36:32] Daniel Coyle: I wish I had, I ended up talking, spending a lot of time with a lot of people who had sat with them, right? By the time I got to it, they were kind of, there were a lot of them were in jail, so they were a little bit hard to reach, but, um, this was a group that sort of came around in the early two thousands, they came out of Serbia.

Sort of this mysterious group that is doing these smash and grab robberies. They were incredibly efficient. They were incredibly fast. They were incredibly effective. They sold tens of millions of dollars really boldly, um, from a variety of jewelry stores around the world. And. For a while, everybody thought, Oh, these must be special operations soldiers.

The way they, the way operate so effectively, they're highly organized. They must be like a troop. It turns out there were this really loosely organized group of like former students and lawyers and, uh, kind of a normal people who had come together in this sort of free range, uh, sort of cells and the main thing that they had that made them unique.

Besides this incredibly devotion to each other, when one of them got put in jail, they would break each other out. I mean, they were just incredibly devoted as a team to each other. The one thing that in common was this incredible, this skin in the game. And I would, I would put the things you mentioned, I would say shared vulnerability is like the most underrated driver of performance.

Um, when you talk about people who are making these big decisions, talk about mission critical teams, I think the idea that all of them stand to lose massively if they screw up is really stand to lose, you know, it's one. Um, not just sort of lose reputation, but really lose a lot. Was it the core of their success and is the core of a lot of people, a lot of great teams success.

Um, and there's a great book about this called skin in the game by Taleb that I direct anybody who wants to go deeper on this. And if you're reading his stuff, also anti fragile is 

[00:38:11] Paddy Steinfort: basically a summary of everything we're talking about. 

[00:38:13] Daniel Coyle: Oh, it's incredible. It's incredible. But this, this idea that when you actually are super invested in, in the, in the, in the pink Panthers case, it was.

That they would live together for a month and divide up the tasks. Someone would case the jewelry store for a month and figure out exactly how to approach it. They, and they would do these elaborate rehearsals. So it wasn't just that each of them had a job that was separate from each other. They were embedded in living together and really each had skin in the game.

And so that idea of. How can you as a team share vulnerability, we were in the leader admitting fallibility is a big piece of it, but simple ways, another, not that this is turning into a book podcast, but the captain class by Sam Walker goes and talks a lot about how great leaders are not necessarily the ones who, who you would think of, they're the ones who are carrying water for the team.

Who are making physical and mental and emotional sacrifices for the team. And that idea of sacrifice, I think is speaks to this as well. How is your team set up to sort of give to each other and be vulnerable and share with each other and share that skin in the game? To me, that's a really underrated source of power and teamwork and connection.

[00:39:20] Paddy Steinfort: That's it's fascinating. You shared the. tidbit there of of them living together. It's not the sexy oceans 11. We're going to meet at the hotel 30 minutes before we do the robbery. It's all planned out. You're the, you're the security guy. You're the beef like. This is something that they ensconced themselves and they actually created role flexibility almost where, okay, you do this and you do that.

And so if someone falls down, we've got it covered. Right. How long would they live together to do that? 

[00:39:46] Daniel Coyle: Months, months, months. And, and there was so this one time they had to cancel a robbery because there were two groups that didn't know they were living near each other, but there were two groups planning to hit the same, the same jewelry store.

So they had to ultimately cancel and figure it out, but that's how there was sort of independent cells, but each of them would be sort of living together. So exactly. It's, I love that it's not oceans 11. It was more like a family. 

[00:40:08] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And this, and the shared vulnerability you mentioned is, is a fascinate plus sacrifice.

It's a tie Mike to your work, uh, beyond the red, white, and blue group, but to the work that you do with school kids now on, on developing positive relationships with, we mentioned at the start of the show, that it's an important part of. Being able to be tough for yourself is having support of others, and obviously a tough team is able to support each other like you just said there was the criminals breaking, breaking each other out of.

Prison is that that's a, that's a very extreme example of a supportive relationship in one sense, the various authors and experts and books names, but Stephen Covey is a, is a deacon in this area of his model of trust being built on character and competence is a fantastic example here. I think that solidifies that someone who is willing to be vulnerable and also will make sacrifices.

Like it's not about me, even if I look stupid, it's very tough. To do for a leader to admit vulnerability, to put themselves out there and to put, make them reliant on someone else in the team. That's a, it's a tough thing to do, right? It's a different form of toughness. But that, that then is a signal to others in the group of character of like, I can trust this person.

And that builds a stronger bond. Would you say that in, well, actually let's ask this, cause I want to, before we finish very important that we talk about great in theory, like how do we change this? If we're a team that's in the middle. How do we shift it? If I'm someone who's got okay relationships, how do I make them tougher and stronger?

So Mike, let's talk about the work that you do in schools. 

[00:41:43] Mike Erwin: Yeah. So, yeah, so the nonprofit is called the positivity project. Um, so we're about five years old now. Um, mentioned before, uh, my co founder is the one who got me, uh, interested in Dan's work for starting with talent code. You know, but bottom line is our mission is to really is to empower America's youth to build positive relationships.

And so when you look at the data, right, from positive psychology, we know that if you're a parent and you want your kid to be happy And life, right. The most important thing that they do is have good relationships, ideally with their family, but also with their friends, their coworkers, their teammates, right.

As you as great decisions would say other people matter, right. Correct. And that was, you know, my, you know, my mentor, I studied directly under him for two years and, you know, like that was it, right. Like the role, but it's not just about happiness and wellbeing. It's also the path is, you know, Dan talks about to organizational success.

And so if I asked a few all the time, do you want your kids to be successful? Well, of course you do. Uh, so I would argue that like our in America and probably the world like the K through 12 education system. Spends a disproportional amount of time, this is a slightly controversial view, but on academic and intellectual knowledge and not enough on teaching soft skills, social skills, character strengths, and teaching kids how to connect with each other.

[00:42:57] Paddy Steinfort: Tell me what that looks like because I'm, I'm picturing half of a locker room that I work with. Yeah. Right. And they're all big grumpy guys. And they're like, what the fuck is this all about? Like, we're not here. If I, if we did this in a locker room, I'd be throwing things at me within minutes of saying, let's talk about soft stuff.

And so if you're a, you're a former military operator, you teach people in the military. You know, what some people are like, who, who work in that, in that field, like trying to explain to someone who's listening, what does it look like to work on soft? 

[00:43:30] Mike Erwin: Yeah. So I think that to me, so we boil it down to a couple of things.

One, and by the way, like, as we know, and this is why it's there, Dan, you know, has broken it down right to sets of living relationship, boom, boom, boom. Like relationships are hard, like so hard, right? There's now is there no silver bullet. There's nothing even remotely close to silver bullet, right? Um, and so like we say, you know, the way I describe is the analogy of like fertile ground will help to make.

It's not going to guarantee that you have a bumper crop, right? But it's going to give you the conditions to be able to grow better crops to me. Right? It's number one. Do you, do you see the good in yourself? Do you see the character strengths and recognize them in you? And then just as importantly, do you see them in other people?

So I would argue that that's not like the silver bullet to building great relationships, but, um, cause there was shared suffering. There's, you know, the accountability, there's all these other kinds of things, but there is no doubt a role if I can see the good in myself. Because as humans, we're really good at seeing like our own weaknesses, right?

And then we're really good at seeing the weaknesses in other people, right? So if we train our mind to see the good in ourselves, to see perseverance, integrity, humility, fairness, forgiveness, if we see those things in ourself and we see them in other people, we now have the common vocabulary to see ourselves.

More clearly and to understand other people better, that gives us the language to be able to build the language and the understanding to be able to build stronger relationships. But I would just sum it up by saying like, yeah, you're like, not everyone's gonna, you know, sometimes I go in and I talk to people like, all right, man, I need this.

You know, like leadership, you know, or this soft stuff, but, um, I think the people over time are coming to the realization that as we've talked about at the beginning of the conversation, that relationships are not just all about like this soft stuff, right? But, but it does boil down to, I think a lot of it is how well do you understand other people?

Because a relationship is two way. It's not just like. You can know yourself until you're, you know, till the cows come home. If you don't learn how to see and understand and see the good in other people, then you are going to, by default, see their weaknesses and their flaws. And it's really hard to build a strong relationship with someone when you see a lot of good in yourself, right?

But you don't understand who somebody else is. 

[00:45:27] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Uh, side note, more out of curiosity and fun than anything you say soft stuff. And I've heard it said a lot and I might've even been guilty of using the term. Right. But then you immediately moved to the truth of. Relationships are fucking hard and having these conversations is really tough.

Particularly like when we're under the pump, it's like, damn, that is one of the hardest things you're going to do as a coach. Sit down with a player and like connect when he's just played shit and you screwed up the play call that was perfect. Like, that's really hard. So why do we call it soft stuff if it's really hard?

[00:45:58] Daniel Coyle: It feels hard, but I think there's, it's not just hard to do emotionally, but it's also like there's a hard physics behind it, right? There actually is. A math there that I think you're tapping into by saying, look, no, when you, it's not magic, it does feel magic when it happens because we're in the realm of emotions, right?

Emotions always feel really powerful and mysterious. Why do I suddenly feel happy or angry? There's actually sort of some, some physics and some math here where it's like, no, no, no. If you express vulnerability to someone, if you say, I'm sorry that I did this, or I think I made this mistake, it can create, uh, you know, really predictable responses.

And so this idea that. Like we understand with our physical body, right? That if you're going to go get stronger, you need to go to the gym and you need to feel pain. And, and when you feel that pain, you're going to have this response where your, your body's going to get stronger. You're going to, your muscles are bigger.

If you don't feel that pain, you will not get stronger. And I think we're starting to feel, learn that in emotional language too, in the emotional world, that relationships, while it is hard to build relationships, there's a physics that really is rooted in, in vulnerability and self reflection and understanding yourself and understanding others.

And if you can figure that out, if you can actually lean into that experience and to those emotions and, and be willing to feel that emotional burn, just like when you feel a physical burn, it's like, Oh no, this is actually a good thing, right? We didn't always know that about exercise. We used to think it was, it was bad.

Like you could die if you exercise too hard. And that's sort of partly true, but it's not totally true. So this idea that. The pain is the gain. And you start to realize, no, no, no. When I, when I express my vulnerability as a leader, when I really try to understand another person, it feels painful and weird, but that's exactly what I would need it to feel in order to create growth.

[00:47:43] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. I can vouch for the fact that the, uh, the belief of dying from exercise still exists. I went for a run the other day and was very close to passing away, but that's because it was my first run in probably a few weeks, maybe longer. And it's a bit like that when it comes to relationships, right? I had a mentor who was one of the first people that introduced me to culture work.

Ray McLean, uh, speaking of books, really, this guy started me on the path to where we are now, uh, where I am now, but particularly in this area, any given team by Ray McLean, really worth a read because he basically does this work day to day with some of the best teams in Australia and started out working in the air force in Australia, doing leadership development by dropping people in the middle of the bush in groups of five or six and saying, work it out.

And a lot of it led to these sort of discoveries that one of the models he used would be, would be, he would take a, uh, a pyramid, but he'd flip it on its head and say, these are the levels of communication at the top is where most people are. That's why it's wide. And at the bottom is where very few people get to, and the top is like grunt.

You walk past someone that you live in the same building. You're like, what's up? What's up? You're, you barely say a word, but you are communicating. There's just not much going on. And then the next level is. We'll, we'll talk about stuff and things like you see the basketball game last night. How about Donald Trump?

Like you talk about things that maybe Trump's not a great example that things that aren't really emotionally invested, right? It's just pretty safe stuff. Then we can talk about other people because if I know Mike and Dan knows Mike, then Dan and I can talk about Mike, but it's still relatively safe because Mike's not involved in the conversation.

So there's no identity crisis or worry about hurting anyone. And then he draws a big thick line above the last two levels. And the next one is talking about Mike to Mike. So we're going to have a conversation and the last one is about, I'm going to talk about me and Mike with Mike, because that's a whole nother level of like vulnerability and like, this could really hurt one or both of us.

And that thick line after the third level is like. It's talking about whether you say going below the line or taking a breath and getting under water, like the ability to go down there once is like me going for a run the other day. It hurts because I haven't done it in a while and I might screw up and I might have to call it before I'm finished.

But if I do that every day. When I really need to go down there, it's going to be much easier to get done, 

[00:50:00] Mike Erwin: right? And that gets into totally and that gets into, you know, about why it's, you know, two things to what Dan said, when you just said, Patty, number one, this is why it's so hard, you know, like to be able to get there, like, especially those initial times.

I mean, um. I've spent some time with Brene Brown, you know, kind of the queen of vulnerability, you know, um, several times at West Point, um, before, um, she got really big. This is like 2012. Before 

[00:50:21] Paddy Steinfort: TikToks. Yeah. 

[00:50:22] Mike Erwin: Yeah. So she, like, I literally spent like a 45 minutes to an hour talking to her. Like, literally, I, you know, she calls it like a vulnerability hangover.

Like, you know, on the next day, you literally feel like much like, and so what Dan said really resonated the idea of like framing it up and compare us comparing it to the physical hurt that you feel, you know, we all know, do you want to get stronger? You want to get faster? You got to go out there and you got to do those 800 repeats or whatever it might be.

But it's pretty interesting to think about it in terms of that same way, like emotionally and all that. Because going back to my point about it's hard, it's just Not something like, oh, yeah, man, can't wait to go out there and, you know, just like leaning on my vulnerability and knowing that like, yes, it is a vulnerable place to be.

But then also, like, literally, like, you don't know how it's going to go at the end. And then that next day, like, you really feel like, man, I am like, I'm exhausted. And that's how I found just talking to her for 45 minutes. I next day, I really felt like I was just like moving in slow motion because she pulled out some, you know, some, some, some complicated stuff with combat rotations and all that stuff.

[00:51:16] Paddy Steinfort: I'm sure she's raptor here. You felt exhausted to talk to her. But, but it is a great example and a really true, like I've heard you say earlier in the show a few times, Dan, like everyone here has felt this or experienced it. I'd be amazed if most people can't say, yeah, I've had a conversation before that went deep below that line.

So like some, we had to go underwater and hold our breath for a little bit. And that later that day or the next day, you didn't feel some repercussions from it. And I think it's a great example. So Mike, you're saying that you can actually practice that and like deliberately build that up as part of what you do with it.

[00:51:50] Mike Erwin: I mean, I, I think that like that's the, you know, you've gotta be able to get there. 'cause the idea of just going there, kinda like you talk about a run, like if you go go for a five mile run once a month, it's never gonna get any easier. It's never gonna be something that you can eventually as a forward to, you know, those are not promise.

I, I've been doing it five months in a row. Yeah, so you know exactly the analogy resonates, right? You know, but the idea of getting there more consistently and training it right like within our mind to be able to go there. But again, it requires a certain amount of energy, a certain amount of time and space.

And then also just the knowledge to be able to know that like you can do this, right? Because there's a lot of people who just. Like I, I catch myself sometimes be like, ah, don't have the energy, don't have the energy right now. Or it's 

[00:52:30] Paddy Steinfort: not, I wish I'm not a people person or whatever it might be. Let, let me ask what Mike's describing there as actual intervention exercises, or here's a program you can do, or here's a conversation template that can actually take you there, right?

These things exist and people do apply them. Have you seen them organically in practice? Like you mentioned pop as a, as a living example of like someone who was hard and then soft, but in other areas. Um, you also described some of the stuff that the, uh, the Pink Dancers did as a, as a split group of cells, but can you think of any other examples where you're like, this person was actually really good at teaching people or showing people, taking them by the hand and walking them through those sort of conversations?

[00:53:08] Daniel Coyle: I think modeling is really underrated as a tool, you know, and the effect, I heard somebody say, put it this way, it's like ideas and books don't change people, people change people and we can all think of people in our lives, you know, if we all close our eyes right now and think of people who affected us, It's very easy to think of them and you often a lot of us think, Oh, what would they do in this situation?

Right? And that ends up being like this compass that lets you do a tough. So you're in a tough situation. All of us do this little mental trick where we're like, Oh, what would my uncle Bob do? What would commander so and so do? And it really is powerful, you know, and it's, it seems kind of woo woo, but I think it speaks to the underrated power of presence and modeling, and that's to sort of connect back to some other threads we've talked about today.

That's why that shared space and that, that is so important because you're sort of modeling for each other, how, how to be, you know, I've seen the effect. In my work with the Cleveland Indians, we have a mutual friend, Jay Hennessy, who came from the SEALS team and has been the head of leadership and development there for a while.

I know he brought Mike in to speak to the, to the GRU, and it's been super interesting over the last, you know, two years to see the effect Jay's presence and other people's presence has had on each other there is contagious. You know, it is sort of the way he leads and the way he communicates and the way he holds himself, gives everybody a really clear model on how to do that.

And so. Uh, to your, to your original point, like, yeah, that's useful to have kind of a model or a reflected exercise. But man, if you can create the environment where you're filling your windshield with really clear people who are doing this stuff every day, that's, that's incredibly powerful, not for just individuals, but for whole groups, you know, that's, that's the oldest software there is, right?

Like watching other people getting motivated by them and copying them, learning how they think. You know, it's one thing to be given a step by step bit of instructions, but a real mentor and you guys have mentioned several mentors. The power of mentorship is super powerful and the power of a mentor is is that we can access how they think about stuff.

Well, how would they think about this? Why would they behave? How would they feel about this? And that that's I think that's incredibly powerful. 

[00:55:15] Paddy Steinfort: It's a great I'm gonna ask a second last question before I get to the last question. And this is Dan. Just just pulling the thread on what you mentioned there off.

Mhm. That's the importance of shared space to watch modeling. And it is the oldest software in the world. I love that terminology for those who work in software, like the person I was talking to Google and we're now separated and they can't do any of that old software and they have to use a new model to somehow model and display and learn by osmosis, what would you, what would be your recommendation for people who are trying to build a culture?

Remotely right now, it's a different world from someone who studied it a lot. What would you recommend? 

[00:55:52] Daniel Coyle: I guess I'd say three things. When you're at a distance, you have to, to create connection, you have to amplify your warmth. We're now operating through these little portals, right? Where you can just see a little portion of somebody in order to get a signal through that, you've got to amplify it.

You got to turn up your warmth. That could be your facial expression. That could be how much you pick up your laptop and show them your office and your pets and pictures of people you love. I mean, it could be the way you hang out together, um, exercise together online, have events that have nothing to do with work.

Second thing I would say is deepen your curiosity. Think more about other people. Think more about your own vulnerabilities and sharing them. Don't walk past questions. Stop and really think about how to dig into tensions together. Deepen your curiosity about tensions. And the third thing I would say is to practice reflection more.

We're at a distance with each other. And so to reflect both creating opportunities to reflect together, but also reflecting alone on continually figuring out what matters, where you should be going next, what your priorities should be, those are things that happen naturally when you're together. So. When we're apart like this, I think it's on each of us to sort of practice reflection more as a group to say, wait a minute, we spent a week working like crazy.

We'd all been on zoom calls all day. Let's hang on a second. Let's all list the three things that we should do next week. And let's talk about those three things. Let's rank them. Um, let's figure out where we should go, what the high purpose thing is. So those two things, I would say, amplify warmth, deepen curiosity and practice reflection.

[00:57:29] Paddy Steinfort: Also very clear structure as well. I appreciate it. Mike, anything you want, you would add to that for those of us who want to like learn or have an idea of how you would help someone work remotely? 

[00:57:40] Mike Erwin: Yeah. Yeah. So, so first I think going back to, you know, so the, the title of the book that I co authored called Lead Yourself First, right, really talks about the importance of solitude and reflection.

That's a big part of it. Um, it's been something that's been sort of under siege throughout the past 15 years in the information age, really 10 years since it Mobile technology, wifi, et cetera. Like all, all those moments we used to have, like, just quietly reflecting in our minds have evaporated. I think that's especially the case right now because we spend so much more time like on our phones and on our computer screens and with zooms all day long.

So I absolutely plus one that, that, that third point, I also go to that first point that Dan made is like, you know, one of the other key points I talk about, I talked to my team about this a lot, you know, most people really struggle with this, like I intentionally work on smiling. Right? Like I'm talking right now, I'm smiling like you and I know it like you have to be intentional about it because if you're not, you'll I sometimes I got people who sit there with me like this and it's like, man, like, you know, like, are you bored to tears?

Like, like, are you having a bad day? Like you? So knowing a lot of people just are, you know, yes, sometimes they're off to an email, they're looking at reading an article. So they're kind of zoned out. But a lot of times they're just Not aware of how important it is like to make that connection that again, if they were doing that same thing when you were talking to them in person at the, at the table at their desk, you'd be like, come on, man, like what's going on?

You all right? Is everything okay? And so being really intentional. And I think there's a whole market out there for people, you know, to, to just be getting better trained on how to like, I like that word amplify, like your, you know, your emotions and your presence there. And then, you know, the final thing I'd say, Hey, You know, in terms of like, you know, building culture, going back to the, to the relationship thing, you know, is the basis, you know, of the definition here, which again, I'm, you know, agree with Dan's, you know, take on this 100%.

I think a lot of it does boil down to how are we working through tension and conflict because tension and conflicts, right? The vacuum that can fill it right is often negative or can cause friction or cause problems in relationships. And a road that, that, that, that organizational culture. And I think that in person, we know this from the research, right?

That it's easier to have a conversation when you can, cause there's all the body language, there's all like all that. It's just, it's just easier to have a conversation virtually. You know, it's having arguments is different. Um, having disagreements is different. And so I think really being intentional about all that, I think carries more weight right now because you're going to have friction and things pop up and disagreements happen.

But like how they are resolved, I think is much more challenging in the virtual environment. So I think really getting intentional about how you approach conflict is more important than ever. 

[01:00:05] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And I like this term there, approach conflict. Cause one of the things that we'll often work on with coaches or leaders in sports teams as an example, but I'm sure it applies in many regions is experiential avoidance is often one of the biggest things that eats away early before you know there's an issue.

That's the thing that really degrades and erodes the trust because it's We all kind of know we need to talk about this, but let's just like keep skirting around the edge of it. So approaching conflict is actually a healthy way to go about very challenging in these times. Guys, this has been fascinating.

I could definitely talk forever on this. I'm sure both of you could, but our listeners probably can't listen for five hours at a time. So I want to wrap it up with this last thing. Mike, you do a lot of work. We've mentioned a couple of your initiatives in not for profits who work in these areas and Dan, you've devoted.

Years, decades of your life to learning and sharing these things. What do you both hope to achieve out of the work that you do? And I'm going to throw it out there for either of you. You're both going to have to answer it. We're not hanging up till you do, but I'll let you choose who goes first. 

[01:01:06] Mike Erwin: I think, Dan, you want to take the first swing or I can?

[01:01:09] Daniel Coyle: You're probably going to have a way better answer than me. I think about the word impact a lot. You know, I started out as a writer sort of in writing the sort of You first see the book as the first reward. Oh, I wrote a book like the, here it is. I got there. And then when you do that a couple of times or once you sort of realize, Oh, wait, that's not it.

There's an impact piece and impacting, you know, I've, I've seen the way ideas move through organizations. I've seen the way ideas can, can change the way people work together. And so I guess I'm just really focused on, on impact. And I think in the end, like impacting how we educate each other, um, as children, as an adult would be a, would be something to.

Aim for, you know, I think that education piece is massive and yeah, I think Mike's living proof that it can be done and it can be done in this really powerful way. So I find that incredibly inspired. 

[01:01:58] Mike Erwin: So, so I'm actually, it's funny that you asked the question in a slightly different way than. As I've been asked it before, but I think about this and I've actually sort of kind of putting fingers the keyboard on this trying to think about it.

So when people often introduce you, right, they introduce you as a your New York Times bestselling author. You're the founder and executive director of Team Red, White and Blue, right? Like people often introduce you through your title or through what you've done. And I think a lot about, you know, You've, we've all heard that, you know, resume versus eulogy thing before, you know, the idea of like, what have you accomplished like versus the impact you've had on your life?

And hopefully there's a, there's a tight correlation there between the two. But, you know, I really, whenever I kind of offer my bio, um, to people, you know, I, I start with this idea of like my character. And so I talk about my leading character strength. So, you know, yeah. Uh, I'm an enthusiastic, grateful, and optimistic leader.

I kind of hone in on my top three character strengths of gratitude, optimism, and enthusiasm. Then I say like that I dedicated my life to serving the nation and empowering peo and empowering people to build positive relationships and become more resilient. So like that's the impact, that lasting resolve of everything I'm involved in.

Um, you know, started a sort of Catholic high school outside Fort Bragg here, Father Capodanno High School, uh, the positivity product, Team Red, White and Blue, the Army Reserves, the work that I do, you know, um, you know, with, uh, organizations on around Lead Yourself First and the next book I'm working on, which will, I think, resonate with both of you called Leadership is a Relationship, right?

Talking about the role of relationships in, you know, in leadership. So all of that to me, because, and I live on 32 acres, you know, with Pigs, chickens, ducks, soon goats, and I got five kids, you know, that are 10 and younger. So like, I've got a lot going on in my life, but to me, it's all a part of like this bigger ecosystem of one tapping into my character every single day.

So I'm not enthusiastic and optimistic, you know, and grateful, then that's not going to work right in any of the domains my life. But then it's this whole idea of like, how can I empower as many people as possible through these various organizations to build positive relationships? And to become more resilient in the process, because we know when you build positive relationships, you're going to be happier, more resilient, and then more successful in life.

[01:03:59] Paddy Steinfort: I appreciate the way you broke that down into resume versus eulogy. And yes, eulogy is important, but that's one heck of a resume you just threw out there as well with all those, like, yeah, you started high school, you've got two not for profits, you work in the army, like, yeah, okay. Making me feel pretty, uh, pretty humble and it speaks to speaks volumes to the level of, uh, of people that, that we're able to get on this show because of the people we're trying to help and the messages we're trying to spread.

So I thank you both for, for being here, Mike. If people do want to find you and any of those numerous things that you mentioned on your resume, where's the best place to, uh, to track you? 

[01:04:33] Mike Erwin: Yeah, LinkedIn is probably the best place to find me, you know, is, uh, I'm on multiple, you know, different social platforms, but I'm spending more and more time on LinkedIn and less time everywhere else.

[01:04:42] Paddy Steinfort: And the name of your book that was published, we'll talk, we'll, we'll pump everyone up. Yeah. Future projects later. But if I can find your book, it was, 

[01:04:49] Mike Erwin: yeah, Lee, I called lead yourself first, uh, inspiring leadership through solitude. 

[01:04:53] Paddy Steinfort: Thanks again for joining us. Uh, really appreciated the time. Like I said, we can probably, we're going to finish recording and probably chat for another 15 hours after this, but thanks for being here and, uh, and good luck with everything you do in the 

future.