Wolf of Wall Street’s Mental Hack to Succeed at ANYTHING (Jordan Belfort + Gaming CEO Justin Kenna)

Two high-flying business minds, two radically different paths, and one thing in common—an ironclad mental toolset.

I sat down with Jordan Belfort, the infamous "Wolf of Wall Street," and Justin Kenna, CEO of GameSquare, to talk about how they built (and rebuilt) success.

Jordan is no stranger to wild highs and brutal lows—managing over a billion dollars, losing it all, serving time, and coming back as one of the most sought-after business advisors in the world. Justin took a different risk—ditching traditional finance to dominate esports and digital media.

Connect with Jordan:
📸Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/wolfofwallst 

💼LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jordanbelfort 

🌐 Website: https://jb.online 

✖️X (Twitter): https://x.com/wolfofwallst 

Connect with Justin:
💼 LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/justin-kenna-3a775622/ 

✖️ X (Twitter): https://x.com/justin_kenna 

Follow me for more:
🌐 Website: www.toughness.com
📸 Instagram: @paddysgram
💼 LinkedIn: Paddy Steinfort
✖️ X (Twitter): @paddysx

 

 

Transcript:

[00:00:00] Jordan Belfort: The easiest money you'll ever make is when you're working the least hard. When it got down to the end of how we're going to portray himself. I said, look, we're going to tell the truth. We're going to talk about what you're doing right now. I think a huge part of success is the ability to get yourself to do the shit you know, you have to do, even when you don't feel like doing it.

[00:00:18] Justin Kenna: It really is about being a sponge. Learning as much as you can and continuing to learn and develop those leadership traits. When you're in jail, you're like the ultimate loser.

[00:00:35] Paddy Steinfort: Welcome to the toughness podcast. I'm your host, Paddy Steinford. And today we've got a couple of high flying business moguls on our show. First up, we have Jordan Belfort, best known by his nickname, the Wolf of Wall Street, but born in the Bronx, raised in Queens. So you know, he is tough. He's the founder of Stratton Oakmont, who managed over a billion dollars at one point, lived a wildlife, super high highs, lower lows than most of us can imagine, including a stint in prison.

But since then has been incredibly successful, bestselling author, the basis of an Oscar nominated film, business advisor and investor. Welcome to the show, Jordan. Thank you. Great to have you here. And alongside Jordan, we've got, uh, another super successful operator in business world who I'm lucky to call a friend as well as a colleague, Justin Kenna began his career in financing Australia at, uh, companies, the likes of Goldman Sachs, Deloitte, Ernst Young, and then moved to the U S to head up finance at Madison and Viner next year in creative studio.

Was poached to be the CFO for the number one eSports brand on the planet. That's FA clan and he is now CEO of Games Square, Inc. Welcome to the show, Justin or JK, as I will call him. Thanks Patty. Good to be here. Great to, great to have you both. Your show Jordan, uh, has a wealth in it, a huge range of guests.

We just had Shaquille O'Neal on the other day. We've had people from fighter pilots, NASCAR racers, and now we've got financial gurus. And, uh, your show also has a broad range of guests. I'm curious, the show is called The Wolf Stand, right? Right. Yeah. Uh, it's probably hard. I don't want to put you on the spot here, but I'm gonna.

Who's your favorite guest that you've had? Like the most unusual, outstanding guests that you've had on the show. Well, he hadn't, he 

[00:02:12] Justin Kenna: hadn't me on there, so way to put him on the spot. 

[00:02:16] Jordan Belfort: I actually had to say if all the people, it's probably me, my solo podcast. I tell you, you know, listen, there's some, there's a couple of podcasts that certainly stuck out for they went viral.

Um, one of them was with the, with the FBI agent that guided me, became a regular friend of mine. Um, and we speak all the time. So he was on my podcast, which was fabulous. And we went through all the stuff about what happened and his take on it. And then the, I guess the most famous podcast is one where I had this other.

Allegedly top sales trainer on the podcast, Grant Cardone, he just made a, a total idiot of himself on my podcast. he just completely thoroughly embarrassed himself, like knowing nothing about sales. He was supposedly teaching it to people. So that was one that people still to this day, like talk about this podcast all the time.

[00:03:07] It's really funny. Cause he just obviously has no idea what he's talking about. So that was a good one. 

[00:03:13] Paddy Steinfort: Awesome. I'm hoping that doesn't, that's not the way this one 

[00:03:15] Jordan Belfort: trends tonight, but 

[00:03:15] Paddy Steinfort: I'm 

[00:03:16] Jordan Belfort: pretty sure I've got great, great athletes. I've like, you know, Blake Snell, uh, juju smith shoes. They enjoy the sports people because they, uh, you know, exemplify, you know, especially for this, in terms of this podcast, top mental toughness and fortitude.

[00:03:29] So It's always interesting. 

[00:03:30] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. It's amazing how much it crosses over top performers in any field, whether it is in finance, business, sport, we've had, uh, emergency room professionals, obviously Navy seals, people who are at the top of their game in whatever industry tend to have. This different approach or a different view on life, which is, I can't wait to dive in or hear one of the things that we're going to go through is for each of you, some more challenging times along your journey to get to where you are right now.

[00:03:53] But as part of that, usually getting through those tough parts of your journey, it starts with a passion, like your ability to keep pushing through. And so I'm [00:04:00] curious for both of you, I'll start with you, Jordan, let's start there in terms of when in your early days, do you think you realized that you'd liked or had a passion, maybe even loved?

[00:04:09] Sales business and making money. When does that become a thing for you? As far 

[00:04:13] Jordan Belfort: back as I can remember, like five to six, seven years old. I, um, always wanted to have nice things. Um, I'm not even sure why, but my parents, you know, tell a funny story that we were on a family vacation and grew up rich or anything like that.

[00:04:28] We grew up relatively poor and we were in some. Restaurant in Massachusetts, by the way, uh, Cape Cod and went to this restaurant. I ordered lobster and I was like seven years old. So they're like, you can't have the lobster. Like, why not? You know, but, um, I think it really crystallized for me when I was 11 or 12 years old and I started to realize that there were things that I wanted and couldn't have, like that my parents simply couldn't afford and they were.

[00:04:56] Very honest with me. And I, I didn't understand that up until [00:05:00] that point, like what was going on? Like what, my parents are brilliant people, very, you know, educated, um, both CPAs hardworking and yet add no money. And I was like, what is that? What's missing from the equation there with them at least. And, and why can't I have the things that I want?

[00:05:14] I aspired that the wallet I saw on TV with things like dynasty and Dallas and shows like that of extreme wealth. And I, I, Always really wanted to go down that path and all the beautiful women that you always saw with that, but seriously, that's, you know, and, and, um, and I think that's what motivated me.

[00:05:32] Yeah. 

[00:05:33] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Right. Yeah. I hope that I have is a similar detailed answer for you, JK, like you studied finance back in Australia. Was it watching Dynasty in Dallas and all the hot women on that show that led you to study that or was it something different? 

[00:05:45] Justin Kenna: No, not quite. Mine is a little different, but, um, no, I think for, for me, it's funny.

[00:05:52] I like. I've talked about this a little bit, but you know, growing up in the country, I think it gives you like a level of [00:06:00] humility. And I actually remember I went to Melbourne when I was 17 years old and, uh, I had a sort of, I would have been young, I would have been 15 or 16 years old, still, still at high school.

[00:06:09] And dad took me down. I did an interview at Ernst Young to do this traineeship and on the, the invitation it said, come in. Business attire or your school uniform. And so this whole room that I walk into, they're all in suits and they're in their, their jackets from their private school. And I was in my school uniform, but I went to school in the country.

[00:06:28] So I'm, I'm basically wearing some gray pants and a green jumper. And I walked into this room and I'd never felt more out of place. But I think from that day forward, for me, it was like I had this healthy chip on my shoulder, which was just, I had this driver ambition to always, you know, prove that, you know, not only can I do what you can do, but I'm going to be better than, than you are.

[00:06:52] And I think from that kind of country upbringing, it kind of gives you, I think. I steal this from the Richmond football club, Paddy, but [00:07:00] we use this now at game square and that's being humble and hungry. And I think that's what it is. It's this, this, uh, hunger to actually want to achieve more and work harder and, and, and, you know, prove your worth.

[00:07:12] Paddy Steinfort: Love that. Love that. I've seen that summed up in a mathematical equation. You're always less than, but you always want more than, and it's a constant push and pull there. And it leads to my next question is a question I ask everyone on the show and it's been some great a broad range of answers. Which is, what's toughness mean to you in your experience?

[00:07:30] Is it that thing where it's a matter of like, there's a chip on someone's shoulder? There's competitiveness? We know from some of the research as they analyze kids who are about to get drafted. One of the best predictors of whether they're going to overachieve according to their draft slot, according to what everyone thinks they're going to get is competitiveness above and beyond everything else.

[00:07:49] Is that a thing in a world of finance and business? Is that a big driver? Is there something else that helps you deal with some of that shit you've got to go through? 

[00:07:55] Jordan Belfort: What toughness means to me is what do you do when things go [00:08:00] wrong? I think there's a lot of people who talk about, you know, being tough and act tough.

[00:08:05] But really haven't seen the wrong side of, you know, whatever experience they're trying to achieve. Like, you know, I I've seen the highest highs and I've been through the lowest lows. And it's very difficult to really know how someone's going to react and, you know, what they get to do when they, Oh, the key is when you get knocked down, what you do is you get back.

[00:08:26] That's the old saying, right? But it's easy to say not so easy to do. And I think that it goes beyond that. Like, I think what ends up separating people. Who are tough is they understand why they need to be tough. I think you have to go deeper. So you know, you could say, yeah, I'm, I'm tough. I want to be tough.

[00:08:44] And you can train tough. And that's what the, I think the military does and they, you know, they train hard, fight easy. Right. That's the, the, uh, adage of the Navy seals, right. But I see that people talk tough a lot and then you watch them wilt. [00:09:00] And they run, I see this all the time in business, they run at the first sign of trouble.

[00:09:04] And I think that part of it is, number one, you just have to go through some of this stuff yourself, but really got to know your why. Why do you want to succeed? And you know, who's going to benefit if you do? Because typically it's the greatest motivators are not going to be yourself, your own fulfillance.

[00:09:20] And I always found myself Going much further for people I loved and cared about, like my children. If it was about doing something to make sure my kids were okay, or that my family was okay, or a cause that I believed in was fulfilled, that I can get myself to do anything. It was just myself making money.

[00:09:38] Yeah. I can motivate myself, but it's much greater when it's just someone else I love. 

[00:09:42] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Really, really key point there that, that point of who you want to do it for, or you know, who you're just even trying to get closer to maybe not even achieving stuff, just getting closer to people. is usually one of the best predictors of whether people can push through tough times.

[00:09:57] And that's what I kind of mentioned before, JK, you want to add anything [00:10:00] on to that? 

[00:10:00] Justin Kenna: Yeah, I mean, to add on to what Jordan was saying, I think for me, mental toughness is really conviction through adversity. And what I mean by that, and sort of adding on to what Jordan was saying, it's not about when things are going great and, you know, for using sort of a public market company example where, you know, you have sort of a report card every three months, right?

[00:10:22] That's not where you're at. Right. Giving you financial results. So it's not about when your revenue is looking great and the share price is running and everybody's happy and you look like a rockstar because you know, the world just doesn't work like that every three months. I think it's about, you know, having conviction in what you're building, right.

[00:10:40] And in tough times and sticking to that. So it's understanding, you know, I think. You know, taking advice from, from shareholders and, and people that have experience is really important. Taking everybody's advice and trying to make that work is, is not the right attitude either, right? It's about taking advice from people and using that to your conviction and what [00:11:00] you think.

[00:11:00] And it's really sticking to your guns when, when things are going tough. Right. And that's, I think that's true, obviously not only business, but, but in life. So for me, that's really what mental toughness is. It's, it's sticking to your guns and sticking your conviction even through adversity. And that's, I think how you come out the other 

[00:11:15] Paddy Steinfort: side.

[00:11:16] No, I was about to jump in there and like a fantastic point. You also kind of. I don't want to leave this point aside because this actually ties into your journey, JK, of sometimes doing tough things is about when things are going well, taking another step up. Like you've moved from Australia, you were in a great job, you were set, you didn't have to leave Australia, right?

[00:11:37] And yet here you are jumping across the Pacific. Taking a chance on jobs here that who knows whether this beast is going to spit you up, chew you up and spit you out or not. And yet that will, I assume that was a tough move, right? So, so how does, how does the definition of like dealing with bad shit tie into that?

[00:11:53] Justin Kenna: Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's, it's the old saying, what doesn't kill you makes you stronger. But I think that's the case if, if [00:12:00] you, if you want to learn and, and what I was talking about before, it kind of alludes to this, right? It's like. It's about not thinking you're the smartest person in the room. It's about being a sponge and learning and, you know, being around people, being through experiences.

[00:12:12] I, you know, Jordan, through his experience in the, in the capital markets, his knowledge there is incredible to be able to actually, you know, have the ear of somebody who has that experience is really important. So I think it's being a sponge working for the knowledge. And then being able to fit that into your own story and your own journey and sticking to that.

[00:12:33] And you're right. I mean, it has its challenges. I think moving from a different country and moving into new jobs, you know, leaving phase plan for me to come to game square was a really big decision and one that a lot of people have probably been, you know, were confused by at the start, but, but this is my journey.

[00:12:51] And now I'm building something that I'm really proud of with the people that I want to build it with. So I think, you know, What doesn't kill you does make you stronger and, and, you know, [00:13:00] you can, you learn from each experience and, and you do, you learn, you learn more from the failures, I think, than you do from the successes and one of our other sort of catch cries is, is to, to fail quickly, right?

[00:13:13] You're going to make a mistake and everybody does. Make those mistakes quickly. Don't sit around forever. You, you make your decisions and you move on and you move forward and you learn from the ones that don't, that don't work 

[00:13:22] Paddy Steinfort: out. Jordan, I hear you, you, uh, chuckling and a knowing nod and smile in the background there.

[00:13:28] What's, what's your best example of failing quickly along the journey? 

[00:13:31] Jordan Belfort: Yeah, I think, you know, I, I, when I teach people about entrepreneurship, I always divide it into two categories. I, I call it failing elegantly. Part of failing elegantly is failing quickly. It also means failing cheaply and also maximizing on the lessons learned through failure.

[00:13:46] Because it's through failure that we really learn a lot more. Ask any person that's really, you know, been there and done it in business or in life and they'll tell you they really got their greatest lessons when things weren't going well. So I think that's why I laugh when he [00:14:00] said that failing quickly, it said collapses into this idea of failing elegantly and, you know, what does that mean?

[00:14:04] Well, in business, it means, you know. You know, using other people's money, seriously, minimizing on financial loss for yourself and also minimizing on the time. I can't tell you how many times I've seen people in my own life who followed me in my journeys, and they were always two steps behind me because they.

[00:14:25] Stayed too long at the last thing. They refused to throw in the towel. I'm talking about my much younger years when I, you know, was at some business that I started even before I got into the brokerage business. And one of them was in the meat and seafood business. And it just was a terrible business, just a shitty idea.

[00:14:39] It's stupid. And it was never going to be anything great. And I kind of realized that and moved on and went to Walsh. And the other guy's like, no, no, no, I'm in the meat business. I'm a meat salesman. I got to make this work. Berth was, you know, looking objectively, not getting emotional. I think people tend to get emotionally.

[00:14:53] Invested in things and they stop thinking about things in terms of just say, Hey, you know what, whether it succeeds or fails, you know, you [00:15:00] know, it doesn't impact me in a sense that I'm not my failures. I learn and grow stronger for my failures and I use those propel myself to success in the future, right?

[00:15:09] That's an integral part of succeeding at business because any business person has never failed before. It's just, as I said, just lying. Everyone fails, you know, at some point and makes mistakes, right? So that's a huge issue. I think another part also is, um. Just getting back to toughness is I phrase it differently.

[00:15:25] I don't really use the word toughness, but I always say a part of just being a successful adult because I deal a lot of people and their kids follow me right in their teens and in their 20s is like the ability to get yourself to do the shit you know you have to do even when you don't feel like doing it.

[00:15:44] So like so many people they'll work really really hard and put a ton of effort into the stuff they enjoy Cause it feels good, but they can't get themselves to do this stuff. That's not so enjoyable. And they might hate. I think a [00:16:00] huge part of success is the ability to channel your effort, to be able to almost train yourself, to do things that you don't like doing.

[00:16:08] On day in day out, you know, yeah, if you feel like doing them, great, that's easy, but what about when you don't feel like getting up every single day and showing up and doing the shit you know you got to do that to me is such an integral part of succeeding whenever you see someone that's really failing and it's a mindset issue so often it's about that.

[00:16:27] They just can't get them if they won't apply themselves. They once a week, they'll show up, but not a daily basis. That's a huge part of success. 

[00:16:35] Paddy Steinfort: And do you feel like that's 100 percent spot on with what everyone has said has come on this? And also a lot of research around trying to predict it. But do you think he's a curly one for you?

[00:16:44] Do you think that is born or trained? Because he's, he's the kicker, right? You've talked about emotional investment, which is like, I've got sunk costs in here. I bought a bunch of crypto and things like shit for a couple of months. And I, I have these feelings that make me want to act a certain way, [00:17:00] right?

[00:17:00] I want to get away from the bad feelings. I want to feel karma. Likewise, when you're sitting in Australia and everything's set up. You've got these feelings. This is cool. I'm sitting on the beach. You got my friends. Why the fuck would I leave this? Right? So you've got emotions on both ends that are causing you to do actions that aren't probably good in the long term.

[00:17:15] Sure. And so do you think it's a natural inbuilt thing? Like for yourself that like, I kind of, you learned it somewhere. 

[00:17:23] Jordan Belfort: Yeah. So I think I think on anything else, it's not black and white. It's probably I'm sure it's a combination of the two, but I think it's far more heavily weighted towards what you learn along the way.

[00:17:33] I think everyone's born with natural tendencies. Some people are born natural tendencies to apply themselves and and be able to stick to tasks and and they don't get distracted as easily. And I'm sure there's a genetic component to this, but I think a far greater portion of this is learn behavior based on root experiences.

[00:17:53] In other words, I think what happens with a lot of people is they have these root experiences early in life that form [00:18:00] beliefs. And from those beliefs, they start taking actions based on those beliefs and acting in accordance with the system of beliefs they have. And those, beliefs and the systems of those which can empower you or disempower you.

[00:18:11] So for example, often I'll hear people say, Oh, I have a terrible fear of public speaking. I hate speaking. I just didn't even think about it's going to make me nauseous and vomit. And invariably, if you go back, well, why is that? Were you born with that? No, they weren't born with it. We'll go back to like the third grade or something where they had a.

[00:18:29] up in front of class and give a speech and they weren't really well prepared, they didn't have a natural ability to do it. So because of the lack of natural ability, no one gave them strategy to do it and coached them through it. Their first experience was terrible and they felt bad about it and that formed this belief of, I'm not a good public speaker.

[00:18:48] Once you have that belief, that belief will search the horizon, the everything to reinforce itself, and you'll start acting in accordance. The next time you go up to speak, you'll feel nervous. You won't prepare. I don't like this. And you do [00:19:00] even worse. And their belief starts to reinforce them until it almost becomes a conviction where I hate public speaking.

[00:19:06] Right. Versus someone like myself, where the first time I will, you know, got to speak, the words just flowed out effortlessly. And I, you know, I love what I was talking about and I was like, wow. And it felt great. And I started to say, wow, 

[00:19:17] Justin Kenna: now you can't get the microphone off it, 

[00:19:18] Jordan Belfort: but no, you're right. That's it.

[00:19:21] You get it. So it gets to the point at over time, you're still, it's who you are. So that I think so much of it, 

[00:19:27] Paddy Steinfort: the number one fear of human beings on this planet is public speaking above even death. Lady, all that sort of shit. Lucky you, you, you, you didn't have any, I have a fear of not public speaking. 

[00:19:37] Jordan Belfort: I have a fear of not speaking enough.

[00:19:41] Exactly. I love to talk about my most comfortable when I'm talking publicly and the bigger the crowd, the better, but that was something that was natural in the beginning, but learned along the way. Cause it felt good. And I think that more people, if they would not throw in like so much of this is like a kid goes out there to play soccer.

[00:19:59] And he has not [00:20:00] great. And this is a natural belief definitely plays a role in that here, but they're not coached correctly. They have a bad experience. They feel bad about, they will laugh that. And so the next time I do it, they don't want to do it. It feels bad. And that is reinforcing cycle beliefs is so important.

[00:20:15] It's not to say that, that natural abilities, they both matter, but it's a huge issue. 

[00:20:20] Justin Kenna: Yeah, I agree. I mean, I mean, what, what I was going to say before is that I think certain people have this something in them where they naturally have more drive and they want more, they have more ambition. But I think to the second part of it, Patty, you were saying before, do you think you can be trained?

[00:20:35] I mean, of course you can, but that comes down to a mentality and a willingness and a want to learn rather than. Quick fixes. Cause a lot of this stuff isn't a quick fix, right? If you want to be able to get up and be a leader and speak on a certain subject, you need to do the work and you need to understand, you know, your, your work and what, what is behind that before you can actually, you know, really deliver a message.[00:21:00] 

[00:21:00] And I think that's kind of a piece that, you know, might be missing a little bit these days with this sort of social media culture and everybody wanting sort of instant gratification. I think there is a lot there that is around that willingness to want to learn because as I was talking to before, I look at, you know, business leaders that I've had, and I've been very lucky to work with some really impressive leaders, you know, the, the amount that I've been able to learn from them.

[00:21:24] And I think it really is about being a sponge, learning as much as you can and continuing to learn and develop those leadership traits. I don't think, I don't think any of these things are easy, even to people that may have that innate ability internally. 

[00:21:38] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I think your point there, particularly about the social media things, it's rife these days.

[00:21:43] I don't, I'm sure both of you get hit probably more than I do on LinkedIn or Insta or whatever. And people are like, Oh, I want to get to where you go. Tell me how to do it. Right. And my quick response is, look, my path is weird and whining and you don't want like it's, you probably wouldn't be able to repeat it.

[00:21:57] But more importantly, I don't think you [00:22:00] understand all the shit that happened. Yeah, I'm working with the 76s and yeah, I'm working with the Red Sox, but you don't understand the eight years of shit that I had to swim. You 

[00:22:09] Justin Kenna: didn't just walk into the Boston Red Sox and, you know, them give you a cap and a, and a clipboard and say, go for it.

[00:22:16] Come on. 

[00:22:17] Paddy Steinfort: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You both touched a little bit there on the, the knowledge of like, well, particularly Jordan, you mentioned. Having bad experiences early that can kind of shade people. We had the new show on who's the basis of the character in billions, the performance coach on that show.

[00:22:33] And she talks about this thing called anticipatory effect, which is effect. You know, it's a fancy word for saying, I'm imagining what that's going to feel like, and I'm making my decisions based on what it's going to feel like rather than being objective, right? How much is your job as an advisor? So let's, let's switch lanes here from theory and psychology to actually like your practical business work, Jordan, as an advisor or an investor in a company like game square, how much [00:23:00] of your role is to say, look, here's some cash go like kill it and pay me back.

[00:23:04] Or how much, you know, if you're going to divide up the pie, how much of it is to get with someone like Justin and say, look, here's something, you know, it's rough, but hold on, or you've got to get out of that early. Yeah. 

[00:23:15] Jordan Belfort: I mean, I don't think GameSquare is probably the best example because when GameSquare, my brand is really the thing, the trash, because it's such a message to market match for you.

[00:23:23] My core fan base is 16 to 30 years old males, skewing male, about 70, 30. So I think that, you know, what I bring to GameSquare is probably a lot. Um, I'm happy to give Justin advice and stuff, but I think just as you guys head on pretty straight with, with business at this point, um, most of my clients though, when I am coaching them on business stuff, a lot of it, you know, there's, there's always two sides to success.

[00:23:48] You know There's a, we live in a world of duality. There's a yin and a yang, right? There's up, there's going to be down, there's yes, there's no, there's always two sides to every coin. So in business, you have, you know, the inner game of success, and then [00:24:00] you have the outer game. Right. The hour game is all your actual strategies.

[00:24:04] And, you know, that could be sales strategies, marketing, just entrepreneurial strategies. And then there's the inner game, which is mindset of success. Right. And they both matter. I mean, you know, everything starts up in your mind. Right, obviously, and that's from where you develop an intention, then you want to go out and take action to make that intention become a reality.

[00:24:24] And I think what happens with a lot of people is they sometimes get sabotaged up in their own mind. There's things that they have that are literally holding them back from success, whether it's limiting beliefs, the inability to imagine a state, low standards. A lack of a clear vision for their own future.

[00:24:41] So when I'm working with someone, I try to define, like, I try to get these core elements lined up for them. Like, you know, make sure they're clear on their vision. They don't have any limiting beliefs about themselves or business in general that would hamper them. Because what happens is the beliefs of these like sort of silent tools of success.

[00:24:57] I have certain clients, they just make perpetually [00:25:00] bad decisions. They make really bad decisions. Like, I have one client in particular, and he's constantly, like, just really doing things where I'm like, I cannot believe, like, why would someone do this to themselves? They're literally forcing themselves to take, you know, three steps backwards for every two forward, and they're successful.

[00:25:19] Cause they're in a successful industry, right? And it's very difficult, you know, like you cannot be lying with saying you can make wave a magic wand on these people and just make them change overnight. It's not an overnight thing as much as we'd like to think it is, but it's about constantly. You know, intervening on someone and then pointing it out and trying to give them the evidence, like real world, like, here's what you did.

[00:25:43] Here's what tough love constantly. Right. And then eventually you see, they start making better decisions. I mean, that's the only way, but so much of it happens up here in their mind. 

[00:25:51] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. JK flipping to you on that point, how much of your approach to like, when I first heard about some of your moves, I think you mentioned it earlier, like you'll [00:26:00] move from.

[00:26:01] FaZe clan to game square a little bit, but even from the normal finance and advertising into FaZe clan, like they're a little bit left turns and unexpected, right. And particularly even. The business direction of FaZe Clan and the emphasis on that brand side that Jordan mentioned. It's a little bit of a different approach, right?

[00:26:17] How do you get to the point where that seems to, where you decide I'm going to swim against the grain versus we're going to do what everyone else is doing. Like that seems to be a bit of a trend of yours. 

[00:26:26] Justin Kenna: Is that fair? Yeah, a little bit. I mean, I think that for me, it's an interesting one, right? Like everybody always talks about five year goals and 10 year goals and where you're going to be and all these types of things.

[00:26:38] My whole thing has always been do the work, get myself in a position that I can achieve. And I have this, and I call it ruthless pursuit of short term goals. And that's what I'm about is a ruthless pursuit of short term goals opens up. Doors to bigger and better opportunities in the future. That's not to say that, you know, for example, talk about [00:27:00] GameSquare.

[00:27:00] I have a vision for where GameSquare is going to be in five years time. Now, are we going to be there? Maybe, maybe not. Will we achieve the things I want to achieve? I'd like to think so, but is it going to look exactly like what I think it's going to look like? It's not going to, right? There's variables and you need to, even what Jordan was talking to before.

[00:27:19] As strong as you are in your convictions, you need to have the ability to pivot. And my whole thing has really been about backing myself in and having ruthless pursuit of short term goals. So I try to not overthink things too much. I have a vision for where I want to get to, but if I do everything really well.

[00:27:36] In the short term, the medium term takes care of itself, and that's kind of my attitude. And so, you know, from, from FaZe Clan and even moving from FaZe Clan into GameSquare, I did that. I gave, you know, FaZe Clan three years of ruthless pursuit of short term goals that I think has been, you know, I'm very proud of and, and has been a contributor.

[00:27:56] To the success and growth of the face kind of where they sit today. [00:28:00] And, you know, for me personally, I had an opportunity to come over and, you know, at 36 years of age, be the CEO of a publicly listed company. And, you know, for me, that was exactly that I'm not in this to. You know, be at a basketball game with a celebrity or in this to walk around and talk about how amazing FaZe Clan is.

[00:28:19] I'm in this to actually grow a business and build value for those who believe in me. And I had the opportunity to do that and come over to GameSquare and to be frank, it's been an incredible experience thus far and we've got a lot of growth ahead of us. 

[00:28:33] Paddy Steinfort: Love that ruthless pursuit of short term goals.

[00:28:37] If you haven't trademarked it already, I'm about to as soon as this finishes. Um, I want to, I want to grab that and talk about this. One of the aims that started this podcast was I am still part of the advisory board for human performance at the army. And I had some guest speakers and they were like, could you curate something that might help us talk about number one, trying to get our operators and our personnel engaged [00:29:00] with.

[00:29:00] People who will help them with their in a game and number two, actively give some tips on that. And the number one really was the key. And so I want to switch back to you, Jordan, and your, uh, you know, the most, one of the most famous lines of, you know, sell me this pen, but I want to flip it a little bit.

[00:29:16] And you kind of do this when you talk about your coaching anyway, but I'm curious to say, what would you do to sell to someone the idea that you actually, why they should have an advisor or a performance coach or a therapist for their in a game? Like, how would you sell that to someone to say, look, if you want to be as good as I have been in business, you want to be as successful as Justin is in business, you need someone.

[00:29:39] To help you with your inner game. How would you sell that? Well, 

[00:29:42] Jordan Belfort: first 

[00:29:42] Paddy Steinfort: I 

[00:29:42] Jordan Belfort: started asking them questions and stuff. I want to find out, you know, what they're doing, you know, what, how they perceive their level of success right now, what they think their strongest aspects are now, what their weakest points are.

[00:29:54] I try to find out what's bothering them, you know, what their main pain points are. Right. I [00:30:00] want to find out the biggest thing is going to be is trying to find out what is really Keeping them up at night in terms of success and then trying to basically get them to just really see more of the big news stuff.

[00:30:13] And one of the biggest mistakes people make with this is they try to sell things to people without really understanding what the prospect even needs. And they use their own map of the world to just assume what they think someone needs. And very often you're wrong because people are really all very different and they have very different.

[00:30:30] You know, belief systems about things and what makes one person thrill will make another person miserable. So I'm very much into like this intelligence gathering and trying to identify at the highest level what someone's primary and. Secondary pain points are what's really keeping them up at night in terms of their own level of, you know, success and this is what I like to the inner game in terms of the inner game of success.

[00:30:58] And once I [00:31:00] have that identified, I feel like I've asked enough questions to really ferret that out. And as I'm doing that, it's really important. I don't just do that and listen. Like, I don't ask a question like and just sit there. Uh, I'm very active, like when I listen to people, I'm like, yep, mm, mm-hmm

[00:31:18] Got, yep. Mm. I very is a, a big part of communication is how you listen to people and not just your grunts and grus, but your body language. It's a, it's a cohesive package of, it's called active listening. And, and the idea is that when you ask someone questions and they answer you, you listen in a way that builds massive rapport with them.

[00:31:41] So you can either be the grand inquisitor asking questions and they hate you. Like, what the hell are you asking me questions for? Like, none of your business. Or, like the trusted advisor. That's the one that really cares about them and you really want to know. So if I say to you, So, what's your biggest pain point right now?

[00:31:56] You say, screw you. You know, or I can say to you, so what's your [00:32:00] biggest pain? What's really keeping you up at night right now? And so like, and if you, so there's, there's nuances here in communication. So if you do this the right way, you ask the questions in the right order with the right tonality attached and you listen actively by the time that you're done asking the questions, you know what you need to know.

[00:32:17] And you say, listen, you know, based on what you said, the program I offer is literally a perfect fit for you. Let me tell you why. And now I'm going to tailor my presentation to directly match on to their pain points and what they do. And then I'll end that by asking them, and here's how you get started.

[00:32:35] Let's get started right now. And I make it very easy to get started. And there you go. Yeah. 

[00:32:40] Justin Kenna: And that approach actually also helps you learn more about the person as well. Right. The active listening and engaging and rather than somebody, especially in those situations, I feel like people give you this story about themselves.

[00:32:53] You know, and, and you hear what they want you to hear rather than, as you said, once you start to, to poke and broaden, you're [00:33:00] also, you're Australian, right? Yes, I am. He is. He's lost a bit of his accent. 

[00:33:05] Jordan Belfort: I'll tell you a great story about it from Australia. So I was paid a lot of money back in the 2010 to buy some psychologists in Australia.

[00:33:14] And they want to dissect the straight line system. What I teach, why it works so well. They wanted to make it into a behavioral model and so forth. And, and they sat me in a room for like three or four days and give me all these different tests and drills and critical incidents in areas, which is a fancy way of saying role playing a psychologist.

[00:33:31] Right. And, you know, I did everything from Rorschach inkblot tests to like literally role playing. And one of the role plays was, uh, a CEO of a. Australian based dairy company. He was an actor, the guy, but he played this guy. He was really good by the way. And he must've, he really knew his shit and they had to be a dossier.

[00:33:50] They said, okay, here's this Australian milk company in the middle of, uh, the Gold Coast somewhere. And they've been in business for 50 years, family owned company. They want to go now and expand it to [00:34:00] China and blah. There's a whole story. And he said, you got 15 minutes to go through this and convince him.

[00:34:05] Now I was supposed to be an investment banker, convince him to rate, to switch, to use my bank. Okay. As one of their investment banks to raise money and, you know, advise them, right. They say you got 15 minutes to analyze this dossier and then close this guy, the CEO. So they gave me the dossier, whatever, long story short, is that because a lot happened, but like they gave me 15 minutes, I ended up taking an hour and a half because.

[00:34:29] I prepare for what I don't believe in just going off of the cuff, right? But they call the CEO and they had all the cameras and lights on, the psychologists in every corner with their pads looking. And this guy comes in and I start going through, giving him a straight line presentation. And after 25 minutes, after the fourth time I asked him for the order, he said, no, the first three times he's like, he said, fine, I'll do it.

[00:34:55] He starts laughing hysterically. I'm like, and he said, I closed the guy says he's [00:35:00] laughing and the psychologists are roaring in laughter. I'm like, what are you guys laughing about? They're like, we paid him to say no. He was told that under no circumstances can he say yes, he has to say no. And you still closed.

[00:35:14] He's not getting paid now. He's not getting paid. But he said yes. And I still closed the guy. Right. So you can see it on YouTube, by the way. The whole thing is on YouTube. They actually taped it is I put it on YouTube many years later. It's on there. It's a real, it's a real story. And a lot of it came down to the fact of the, all the questions I was asking the guy, and by the time I was done, I had this identified his problems.

[00:35:34] So perfectly. And he believed that was an expert because I positioned myself as an expert. So there's all these things that go down when you're communicating with people. And I think the biggest thing is that you must be perceived as an expert in your field. If you're perceived as a novice, people are just simply not going to answer your questions, honestly.

[00:35:50] Well, if they're not going to certainly want you to be the one that solves that problem. We seek out experts to solve our problems, eliminate our pain. That's a crucial aspect of selling [00:36:00] anything. 

[00:36:00] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And I think, and so I heard two, two main things there. One is be perceived as an expert, but two earlier, you said they've got to feel like you care, there's got to be a connection there, right?

[00:36:08] Of course. Right. You, you did that little switch of tone. Which, uh, Oh, I'm sure we'll be able to highlight in post production, but your voice change, you could be a psychologist. That was freaky. How, how easily you slipped into that mode. Speaking of psychologists and their term for that critical incident stuff, I want to throw to you now, JK, because one of the other things that is common on this show, I've mentioned some of the guests we've got, you know, NBA, NFL, MLB, uh, actors, comedians.

[00:36:35] Uh, fighter pilots, Navy SEALs, people who like, if you screw up in the next five minutes, you're toast. Someone might die in some cases, or you're going to lose a 10 million contract, or you lose a Super Bowl, like all sorts of massive things are on the line. I'm going to suggest that when you're pitching to an investor that could influence your bottom line, firstly, with just a capital injection or someone of Jordan standing in terms of brand reach, et cetera, there's some shit [00:37:00] going on inside you as a presenter, right?

[00:37:02] Or, you know, in a meeting where you're making a big decision, Jordan to actually invest. What, what's that like for you? Did that get, get better for you? Like tell us, tell us about some of those edge of your seat moments that, that you, you come across as the CEO or as a CFO. 

[00:37:15] Justin Kenna: Yeah, totally. Uh, I think the, the first point is to remember that, that no one is dying in the process, right?

[00:37:23] So you, you, you're not a surgeon. And, and at the end of the day. You know, obviously you want to make people money who are investing in you and believe in you, but, you know, we're, we're running a gaming company and that should be fun. So we worked very hard, but, but trying to actually, you know, make it fun that I think what Jordan said, you know, in the, in the previous question was, was spot on and that's being an expert in your field and, and having people feel comfortable in that.

[00:37:50] So highways revert back to, it was about three and a half. Years ago, and, uh, we were going to raise money for phase plan at [00:38:00] that time. The gaming industry, gaming and e sports industry was not what it is now. And actually, you know, there, there wasn't a huge amount of money being invested in the space and we had this, uh, call it a business loosely at the time, it was, wasn't much of a business.

[00:38:16] It was, uh, a brand with a big social media following, but a lot of question marks on how you actually monetize that. And, uh, Greg Selko and I actually went and we, we did a roadshow on the East coast and yeah, we pitched on wall street, uh, you know, a bunch of suits and to be quite frank, we walked in there and told the story and that experience now looking back on that really shaped my kind of experience around being an expert and needing to know absolutely everything about your business.

[00:38:46] And I think there's no better way of knowing every single thing about your business. There's no better way to pitching your business to very intelligent people who are giving you their money, right? Cause they're going to ask you so many different questions. And I think [00:39:00] from, from there to now, you know, I raised roughly 60 million in debt and equity at phase clan.

[00:39:04] We raised like 11 million so far at game square. It definitely gets easier. You feel more comfortable after doing it for sure. But I think it also just comes down to knowing literally everything about your business. And, you know, when I went in to pitch face kind of that point, I believed in our story, but there are a lot of things we still need to work out as a business, right?

[00:39:28] There are a lot of question marks. And I think it's, it's also down to winning the crowd and the credibility, but also not trying to. Answer every question perfectly if you don't have every single answer being honest about and coming back to it. But I think to answer the question, Patty, I think it gets a lot easier the more you do it.

[00:39:47] You feel more comfortable. I think the key to it is understanding your business and understanding your content. Uh, to be able to actually instill trust and faith in others for them to give you their money to believe [00:40:00] in you and the growth of your business. 

[00:40:01] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. I love it. I mean, no, you said again, we've gone back over the same ground there, but knowing your shit first and foremost, being crucial and then getting the reps, which allows you to continually know your shit better and better because people will ask you questions that may not have been ready for, if you're honest.

[00:40:16] You go and find the answer. You don't try and make it up 

[00:40:18] Justin Kenna: totally and being thrown in the deep end. I think for me was probably the best thing, right? Like you, you can prepare and I'm similar to Jordan. I prepare for meetings and for big pitches and presentations like no other. I'm not going to be at work, but you know, if I look back now on that pitch.

[00:40:36] I didn't know what to expect, right? Walking into a sea of vultures in suits that, you know, want to know everything about the industry and how you monetize every little morsel of it. And at that point in time, we hadn't figured it all out. So being thrown in the deep end was a really good learning curve.

[00:40:53] And then from there, it really, as you said, honing your own skills and continually getting those reps in. 

[00:40:58] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, I'm, I'm [00:41:00] curious for each of you, this is totally a side note, but we worked out early days when I was in MLB and we were doing a bunch of hours cause there's like 200 athletes in the system that if we were delivering an hour on a, on any given day of spring training camp, for example, we would have to do eight hours of prep.

[00:41:15] That was our optimal. Like we've, we fucking nail it. If we do eight hours for one hour, do you guys have any idea what your ratio is in terms of like being out of crush presentation? I normally spend X amount of time on the, you know, on the prep phase. For 

[00:41:27] Jordan Belfort: me, I mean, is it, there's a difference between an initial presentation and then like, I I'm, I'm like, well, it presents the same information, like all, but what I have is like, it's like people want the straight line system.

[00:41:43] Right. So it's really about a quick example. Cause like, I've been teaching the system to people all over the world for like 30 years. And there's just this voracious appetite for it because it works. And like, it really works. Right. So like when it comes to that sort of thing, right, I will literally like not prepare [00:42:00] at all because I just, it's so unconsciously competent for me.

[00:42:03] They, but it's imagine like you would, what you do best in your life. Having to present about that. So if it's just that, well, then I'm just, whatever. It's like I show up and it's perfect. It was like, but for example, if I get hired by a company and I, good examples, a crypto deal I just saw, and it's a payment platform, like very similar to a PayPal for cryptocurrency.

[00:42:24] I spent six days, probably, you know, six hours a day, just on putting the deck together to make it so perfect. Because I know that if I do that, everything else is simple. I think what people often do is they forget the certain steps. It's like these foundational steps, like, okay, how does it, wow. And look, we came back with failure.

[00:42:47] Leonardo DiCaprio played him in a movie and, and Marty Scorsese directed it. And now it's like, it's a global brand. Guess what? When I first tried to write the book, The Wolf of Wall Street, it sucked. [00:43:00] The first few drafts were like, it was like, I wrote three pages and like, you know, I was in jail at the time.

[00:43:05] And my bunkmate was Tommy Chong from Cheech and Chong. And he was like, oh, yeah, it really sucks. Like, oh, thanks, Tommy. I've done what you really think, right? And what it was, I stumbled upon a book called Bonfire of the Baddies. And I use it like a textbook. And I taught myself to write, but I spent. More than 10,000 hours teaching myself the foundational skill.

[00:43:26] That was required to achieve what I wanted to achieve. And I think, I think what people often forget is that typically in most businesses or endeavors in life, there's going to be, there's going to be something that you got to really learn is this actual skill and the absence of that skill, all the desire in the world is not going to matter.

[00:43:45] So it's like the intersection of desire, hard work and skill. So unless you want to take the time to learn a skill set. Then you're screwed. Right? So I think you have to get honest with yourself. Like what the first step in achieving any goals, I got, we'll set the goal obviously. Right. But [00:44:00] also what do I need to learn?

[00:44:02] Are any specialized skills or info I have to learn here to succeed and get what I want. You don't do that. You're going to be working 10 times as hard. I'm probably not going to achieve what you want in life. 

[00:44:11] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Yeah. I've been set goals and a lot of people set goals with here's my, here's my outcome and here's what, here's what I want at the end of it.

[00:44:17] They don't think much about the input, right? What you got to put in, what you actually got to learn and build in yourself. JK, sorry, I cut you off again. 

[00:44:24] Justin Kenna: Totally, no, no, I'm used to it. Mine is similar. I mean, my preparation time has reduced because I know the subject matter. Again and again, right? Up your wall, sit right.

[00:44:34] Exactly. So I think, I think that's, that's the key here is, you know, there's no, I think, Exact time of, you know, uh, input to get the output. But, uh, once you know your subject matter and you are that expert, it becomes a lot easier. It's like, because you're selling something that you believe in and you're passionate about.

[00:44:54] It sounds corny or very easy, but it's the truth. And, you [00:45:00] know, once you, once you build something that you believe in, you know, it's been very easy that relates to people and people can, that comes off when you present and people can understand that. 

[00:45:10] Paddy Steinfort: So 

[00:45:11] Justin Kenna: for sure, mine varies a little bit, you know, obviously I put in more time when we're doing different commercial deal pitches, or you're meeting with different people that you haven't before, or taking the time to understand their knowledge of this industry, right?

[00:45:23] It's a very new industry. So the, the education level there is very different. So for people that actually understand the industry, you can kind of jump straight in for those that don't, it can be at a, at a higher level to try and get them that knowledge. But yeah, I look, I agree. I think it's, it's really about knowing your subject matter and then that comes across.

[00:45:42] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. Right. For sure. Um, switching, switching modes here because you, you talked a little bit, so we're talking about preparation there, right? But that came off the back of talking about being thrown in the deep end and Jordan, I mentioned in the intro, you were thrown in the deep end into a situation most of our listeners, I'm sure there'll be some exceptions, but [00:46:00] most of our listeners haven't been to jail, uh, haven't served time.

[00:46:03] And so you went in there and served, uh, it was more than a year, right? Almost two years. Almost two years. Yeah. Yeah. And so tell us about that experience, if you're okay talking about it, like that's a tough experience, right? What was the hardest thing for you going in there? That it's pretty hard to prepare for some of that stuff, right?

[00:46:20] Jordan Belfort: Yeah, I mean, listen, I wasn't in a penitentiary. So like, I was in, I wasn't terrible. I wasn't worried about dropping a bar of soap in the shower. So I wasn't like that man, okay? But jail's jail and it still sucks, right? And it was awful because, you know, I was separated from my children. And it's just like, you know, when you're in jail, you're like the ultimate loser.

[00:46:44] You are, you're a loser because you've lost in the game of life. You've lost. He did. So whatever it is, you lost, you've temporarily lost, and now you're locked up with no civil rights. It's terror. It's like, you can't imagine what it does to someone's psychology because. It's like, [00:47:00] there's just no way around it.

[00:47:00] You can't rationalize your way out of it. You are a loser and, you know, and the world goes on without you. And I think what happens to a lot of people is they go into jail and they allow that become who they are. They allow the experience to define them versus for me, what I did is I used it to propel me to greatness.

[00:47:24] Like I. And it might sound odd and, but you take the hand that you're dealt or you dealt yourself and you move forward. So, you know, for me, I remember there was this moment in jail when, you know, Tommy Chong, who was my bunk mate, right? And he said to me, you have to write a book because I was telling him stories at night and he was rolling on the floor because I thought they were bullshit.

[00:47:47] And my wife Googled you and it's all true. I can't believe you lived this life. Ironically, I didn't. I think my life was that crazy. This was my life. I'm like, really? You think my life was It's like, I'm Tommy Chong and I think your wife is crazy, right? No. [00:48:00] Right? And in that moment, I made a decision, right?

[00:48:03] To start. I said, all right, I'm going to give it a shot. Right? And then it was just a terrible struggle. I was a terrible writer. I couldn't write anything well. It was really boring to read my writing. And then I had this. second incident where I stumbled upon this book. Oh my God, this is how I want to write.

[00:48:20] And I literally taught myself to write like word by word, taught myself to become a, uh, well, I think most people say it's a very, very good writer now. Okay. In terms of like, you know, I can write as good as pretty much most great authors, right? Not like the best of the best, but I'm up there. Okay. I really, and I believe that in my heart, I was walking around the prison.

[00:48:39] For about a year and a half with my books and writing under my arm. And I kept saying to myself, everyone else here is wasting their time. I'm not, I'm going to come out. I want to show everybody here. And I was running up. It was a strategy I was doing on purpose. I was doing it to myself, knowing I'm kidding myself and saying, I'm going to write a bestseller.

[00:48:59] [00:49:00] I'm going to take this whole thing. They don't know they're wasting their time. They do nothing. I'm doing something. I'm then. Proving myself. So I use that time away to improve myself, to give myself, I exited prison with a skill set that few people have. I don't have ghost writers. When I write my books, I write my books myself.

[00:49:18] So that skill I developed, I exited a much more powerful person in terms of the ability to communicate. I always had the natural born ability to speak, but not right. That skill. Allowed me to achieve everything else going forward. Now what have I been successful in? Yeah, I would have been successful anyway.

[00:49:37] It was in my nature, but that skill, it was that moment in jail not allowing to say I am the mistake of my past. That's the big one. I'm not the mistake or the mistakes of my past. I'm the resources and capabilities that I gleaned from my past mistakes. So every mistake you make, if you can look at it [00:50:00] that way, you grow stronger, you learn from it, you develop muscle.

[00:50:04] So I exited jail now with a ability to write really well. Ethics now really back in line, knowing I'll never do something wrong again. Like I learned my lesson on that, that regard. And I set myself up for massive success. And then I came out and wrote the book the first year working 18 hours a day, hiding away in a small little apartment.

[00:50:24] And the rest is history. So like you said, people say, Oh, you work for this team and that team, and they don't know what the blood, sweat and tears. Well, the blood, sweat, and tears that went into my thing was literally countless hours of teaching myself to write and then writing that book and going to jail.

[00:50:40] Paddy Steinfort: Well, I mean, that's an amazing turning shit to gold kind of story, right? It's a The alchemy of, of life, being able to take some shit stuff and make good stuff out of it. It 

[00:50:50] Jordan Belfort: was on purpose though. It was on purpose. It wasn't an accident. 

[00:50:53] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. So I'm curious about that because one of the, I know we're starting to get up against time, but one of the things that we talk about here, as [00:51:00] well as being able to find an advisor, like formally, potentially for your in a game, sometimes it comes through the.

[00:51:05] Through heroes that we have by the people that we see, we read their shit. Like you found this book that kind of shaped how you wanted to talk in writing, or we have actual advisors in business or a coach or a parent or something like that. Right. Was it your deliberate intent in jail to flip the shit and turn it into gold?

[00:51:22] Obviously people want to do that, right? But you were deliberate and specific and crafted about it. Well, did you have someone who pointed you in the direction besides 

[00:51:31] Jordan Belfort: Mr. Chong? So I'll say this, that Tommy Chong probably told every single, Tom is a really nice guy. He was not one to keep to himself. He gave advice to a lot of people.

[00:51:41] He probably told 30 people that to go write books. I'm the only one that actually taught themselves to write and wrote a book or everyone else like, so I think the difference I always say is so much of it is about like this ability to get yourself to do the shit you don't like doing. And a lot of people, they just cannot get [00:52:00] themselves.

[00:52:00] They don't that it's discipline to do all the stuff that happens before the glory. Do you have a chance for that? How do you make yourself do that? Well, it was not a trick. What it is, it's a set of values and beliefs I have about success. I fully believe that's an integral part of success. Like in my mind, I don't see any other way.

[00:52:22] So like, if I want to achieve success, I have a firm belief that success requires preparation, hard work. The easiest money you'll ever make is when you're working the least hard. You make most of your money when you're hardly even working. All of the hard work goes into before you become successful. And this is what people don't get.

[00:52:42] Like they feel like, Oh, he's an override success. Yeah. After six years of hard work. Right. So it's like once you're succeeding. Making money is I made the most money hardly working, you know, oh, five, 20 million if I that happens now, it's like unbelievable. I can print money now after years and years and years of blood, sweat and tears.

[00:52:59] [00:53:00] Right, but I enjoy that again. My mind I've linked up. Like to me, I believe that part of the journey is the hard work and like the not succeeding. So like when I'm not getting what I want, I'm not getting, I'm not negative about it. I'm like, it's, I'm, I'm one step closer. It's like, it's exotic. It's not a game.

[00:53:18] It's like, it's a belief. I have a tacit belief that this is how you succeed in life. You do these things and you will succeed. And I'm like, don't do, and this is a big problem for many people. Many of your listeners, I bet is that many people don't truly believe They have what it takes to succeed. It's not fear of failure that stops them.

[00:53:36] It's that when they play the movie out, they're like, I don't know if I really am going to succeed. So why should I do all the hard work? Like, I really believe that if I do the hard work, I'm going to succeed. Doesn't mean it's going to happen, but I believe it. And when you believe that, your brain will say, Alright, well I might as well do the hard work because I'm going to get the payoff.

[00:53:51] Justin Kenna: And it goes back, Patty, to your point before that a lot of people worried about the output. Right. Rather than the input, it's the input [00:54:00] that the output will take care of itself. Like what you're saying, Jordan, in terms of you do that hard work, you know, a lot of these people make money when they're successful, but it's the work and it's the input that actually gets you there.

[00:54:11] So similar to my ruthless pursuit of short term goals, don't worry about the output so much. Actually put in the work, then, you know, it'll take care of itself. 

[00:54:21] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And is that either the ruthless pursuit of short term goals or that, uh, I know, I know that there's a, that's a paraphrase almost might be accidental of, uh, uh, 49ers coach who used to say, uh, I think it was Walsh, Bill Walsh used to say the scoreboard will take care of itself.

[00:54:37] Like everything around the West Coast offense was, let's get four yards at a time because if we do that a hundred times in a row, we score every time. You get a first down every time you score, the scoreboard takes care of itself, just get four yards. Getting back to your Ruthless Pursuiters short term goals and any other parts of your philosophy in terms of how you've approached this.

[00:54:54] Fantastic career today. Who are the heroes of the people you borrow from? Like, was there someone along the way that [00:55:00] helped guide you or is this just, you, you've taken bits and pieces of some of the people you've been on the net or alongside? 

[00:55:05] Justin Kenna: Yeah, for sure. I've had a number of different mentors along the way and I've been very lucky to do so.

[00:55:11] Uh, in Australia, working within big four and investment banking, and then I was running a strategy group at one of the big four banks and the CMO at the time. Um, she was one of the best leaders that I've ever had, but also encouraged me to look at opportunities overseas and was one of the reasons that I took the leap and came to LA in the first place, which was a big leap at the time.

[00:55:33] You know, I was very young to be running a strategy group at a big four bank in Australia. I was living in Bondi with a great group of friends and enjoying life. But, you know, I took a pay cut and came over to the U S and, you know, at that point in time really didn't have much here at all. And it was sort of her advice that helped me and, and while that can be perceived as a risk, it's a pretty educated one, right?

[00:55:56] Like, um, I'm taking a risk, but if it doesn't work out, I can [00:56:00] go back to Australia and I'll have a good job and I'll have my mates there and life goes on. But the upside of that is, you know, Learning to work in a new market, which has so many greater opportunities. And so, yeah, I think for me, I'm, I'm very lucky that I've been around a lot of really impressive leaders within business, but also I guess I've had the ability to be a bit of a sponge as well.

[00:56:23] And I think that's important. You can be lucky enough to be in the room with. Uh, you know, people who have that experience, but you have to be willing to stop and listen and try to extract as much of that as you can and being lucky enough to do so. That's definitely really helped me. 

[00:56:37] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah. And that's that humble and hungry at the same time, right?

[00:56:40] You've got to be, you've got to be in the room, but you've got to be willing to be doing the work, pick up on what they. Put out there and run with it. I want to finish with usually the last way we tie things up is where to from here. So we start with you, JK, it's a, it's a great journey so far, but compared to the two older blokes on the show, you're still spring chicken in terms of your, your business career, right?

[00:56:59] [00:57:00] Youngness. Young, that's probably because of your days back in Bondi. Young CEO, young CEO, still a long way to go, obviously very invested in, in your, in your current role and it's a great spot to be in. What do you hope for the future as you obviously expand and e sports is taking off? What do you hope for your future, both yourself, for the industry and for people who might be listening to this show?

[00:57:24] Justin Kenna: Sure. So I think for me, you know, leaving FaZe Clan, it wasn't an easy decision, but it was the right decision. And definitely not something I did lightly, but I now look at it and my goal is the same, and that's to build the biggest gaming and esports company in the world. You know, for me personally, I want to be able to set up a life for my family that I can, you know, support them.

[00:57:48] And that's also my extended family and family and friends back home. I want to be in a position to be able to do that. So that definitely motivates me. And, you know, as you kind of go along this journey and you have [00:58:00] people that believe in you, you know, whether it's Advisors or investors or people that are, you know, giving up their hard earned money because they believe in you.

[00:58:08] I take that very seriously and I want to make sure that every single person that's put one cent into this company, you know, gets a lot back. So, uh, I think that we're really well positioned. Not trying to look too far ahead, but You know, continuing to do the right things and build this company the right way.

[00:58:25] And I'm really confident that we'll get there. 

[00:58:27] Paddy Steinfort: Love 

[00:58:27] Justin Kenna: it. 

[00:58:28] Paddy Steinfort: But touching on what Jordan mentioned before about really knowing you, why it helps to push through some of the. Long, hard nights and early starts 5 a. m. in the sauna, as you mentioned before we started recording, uh, Jordan, over to you. What about like your, your story has evolved, obviously an incredible journey that most people are more familiar with than mine and Justin's, uh, at a point now where you're doing a lot of coaching, a lot of advising and investing.

[00:58:50] What do you hope to come from that as opposed to when you were just trying to make a bunch of money and build an awesome company? What is it now that drives you and what are you hoping for the future? 

[00:58:59] Jordan Belfort: So I guess, [00:59:00] you know, at this point, it's, you know, my brand is really well established and, uh, I'm doing a lot of licensing deals and I'm very interested in finding good companies to work with and advising young CEOs and trying to help them, you know, grow their businesses and get super rich.

[00:59:18] They don't want to be super rich. Right. And again, for me, the money is a scorecard, right? Obviously I want to get equity in these deals as well. But, you know, for me, it's like, you know, it's very. Strange to walk around and like wherever I go, people have, you know, they've seen the movie, they watch my stuff online.

[00:59:36] And the one overriding thing they always say is, Oh my God, you changed my life. Like you saw this, it was just, it's such an impact on me. So it was really just about like, for me, it's like. It's just expand me on that message. Honestly, it's like, I don't look at it just in consulting with CEOs. There's all these young, there's so many young kids out there.

[00:59:53] When I say kids, it's like anyone under 30, right? And, and like they look at my life [01:00:00] and everything I've accomplished, what I've lost, what I've been able to make back. And, you know, for them, it represents like this unbelievable, like just sort of drive to succeed. And I feel like a responsibility. from that.

[01:00:14] Like I have a, I have an awesome responsibility to make sure that they understand what the good things were, what the bad things are, were and also how do you, I believe everyone has a right and the ability to get rich. I really believe that. And I think that, you know, the old model of going to college and, you know, working for a corporation, I, I really don't believe in that anymore.

[01:00:35] I think if you listen to certain. Things that if you want to be a doctor or a lawyer or some sort of degree that is required for license, that's one thing engineer, but for the most part, if you want to be an entrepreneur, you just don't need to go to college. And I think that so many people are getting caught up in getting.

[01:00:52] Really rotten educations that are more about political correctness and insanity than an actual practical business skills to [01:01:00] prepare them to succeed in life. So that's my goal is just to continue to, you know, go out there, educate more people and inspire more people around the world. 

[01:01:08] Paddy Steinfort: That's awesome. You do educate, you do inspire, and you are a great paragon.

[01:01:12] I would use that fancy word of, of resilience, both in your story and, and ongoing, I want to grab that last word as both an investor in the space and someone who is heavily involved as formerly CEO of e sports, right? How did you each make a decision that this isn't just a trend? Like, how do you know this is going to be a resilient business industry that is growing and that it will continue to do this as opposed to like, Oh, it was cool.

[01:01:36] And then it dropped off. Right. There are, there are a few things where industries spike for five or 10 and then disappear. How do each of you decide that this is like, whether it's with esports as an example that I've thrown up there, or as people, like, how do you trust that someone's going to be able to pull a 10 year journey?

[01:01:51] I 

[01:01:52] Justin Kenna: mean, if you look at the data here, this industry is. You know, it's definitely here to stay, uh, in [01:02:00] terms of, you know, there's more revenue. And this is something that maybe your listeners don't know, but there's more revenue in the gaming and e sports industry than in the music and movie industries combined.

[01:02:11] The amount of dollars that are spent from an investment standpoint. Reaching astronomical levels and I think from a maturity standpoint, it's still a pretty young industry. So you're right there. But I think it's really about the power of reaching this unreachable audience. And Jordan was talking about before it crosses over with his brand, right?

[01:02:31] You talk about, I think people in the past have looked at gaming, like it's this sort of. Eight to 15 years old, but the 15 to 35 year old market of males, high disposable income, they call them the untouchables or unreachables. That's really what, you know, the position that brands have been trying to reach forever, regardless of whether it's gaming or whatever, reaching that high disposable income, you 35.

[01:02:58] And I think that this [01:03:00] industry reaches. That audience, I think the brands are starting to realize that this isn't just about publishers who make the games making money. It's about the biggest brands in the world trying to connect with this audience. And you just need to look at the data to understand how big this industry is, right?

[01:03:16] The, the eyeballs that, you know, some of these big streamers are getting from streaming from their bedroom on a Tuesday night. It's, it's crazy, but there's still some unknowns and that's Uh, excites me is unlocking those unknowns and monetizing them and being a part of shaping this industry. But, I mean, the growth of this industry, I think is undeniable.

[01:03:37] Paddy Steinfort: Yeah, well, I know that one of the, uh, you mentioned there that the gamers always grow older, right? They don't stop being gamers, they just get older. It helped me get through the pandemic. My PlayStation got dusted off. Got me through a lot of the, uh, a lot of the boredom at home. Jordan, over to you. It might be part, like, I think Justin did a great job of answering that both the technical and the financial reasons there.

[01:03:57] What about when you look at a business opportunity or even [01:04:00] let's just say you're looking at an individual who's sitting across the desk like Justin is saying, Hey, do you want to come on board? This is really cool. What do you look at, at an interpersonal level, at a personal level, at a professional level to say like, I'm going to bank on this person?

[01:04:11] Jordan Belfort: Mostly it's about the person and more than the industry. Obviously, there's some industries that, you know, lend themselves to exponential growth, right? And this rules are well known for that. So, you know, you want to be investing in areas that are going to get much higher multiples and experience high margins typically.

[01:04:28] But it's always about the individual that you're investing in. The person that's jockeying the ship, the wrong person will destroy any company. And I don't care how great the industry, it doesn't matter. They'll wreck it. It happens all the time. It's literally the reason that 95 percent of businesses.

[01:04:45] Either only marginally succeed or fail is cause they just have terrible management. It's really, it's just, it's a sad thing, but it's reality. But in terms of gaming itself, you know, I, I think what people maybe don't realize so much is that [01:05:00] the technology has come so far, the shit's almost real. It's like weird.

[01:05:06] It's like when I was 12, I think, or 11, my father brought home Pong, Coleco Pong. And it was like this, we're like, On our TV. I was like, how could this be? Like, it's unbelievable. We don't have to go to the arcade. It was like, just that was it. Right. Then breakout came out after, right. The stuff that they have out today is so intricate and so real.

[01:05:32] And this is nothing compared to where it's going to be in five or 10 years. Now, VR and all the stuff. And I believe this industry is going to boom. And I think it's not even scratching the surface of what this stuff is capable of. My kid, when he was 15 years old, I you stop playing that stupid game.

[01:05:51] You're never going to get laid. If you play these games. Meanwhile, now the poorest people in the world are like playing these guys. Like, it's like, I really had it wrong. You know what I'm saying? [01:06:00] I thought it was like, what are you doing? Like, what are you, what's wrong with you? Just stop the same as change this thing.

[01:06:05] Right. So, so I really believe that. And I think that there's going to be so many events in technology. And I think that the monetization strategies are pretty clear right now, and there'll be new ones coming online. So I think this is the right industry at the right time. And I think it's getting much bigger.

[01:06:21] Paddy Steinfort: Love it. Well, I want to wrap it up there and say thank you to you both. You've both shed a lot of light on some areas that some of our listeners may not be that familiar with at the top end of business. So great level of education. Both of your stories are inspiring in different ways. And you both.

[01:06:35] Paragons of resilience and really looking forward to watching the industry and yourselves individually take off from here. So appreciate you sharing your stories, your wisdom with the crowd and look forward to keeping in touch. Thanks, 

[01:06:49] Justin Kenna: buddy. Take care. Thanks, buddy.